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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Dr's are too quick to say "its a virus" go away (sensitive - maybe triggering)

93 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 26/01/2016 16:01

Apologies if there is already a thread.

After listening to the news about the poor baby who died from sepsis last year and the blame being laid at NHS 111 feet, i was struck by the fact that the poor woman had taken her child to two doctors who sent her away with her son saying that it was a virus and would be fine etc.

Of course there were failings on the part of 111 and its a service i really don't have much faith in but surely there must have been some questions over whether this child should have been prescribed anti-biotics at an earlier stage.

It may well have been "just" a virus and non responsive to anti-biotics and Drs are stuck between a rock and a hard place because of anti-biotic resistance. However, Very often bacterial infections are able to take hold because a person is laid low with a virus. Surely if a mother is returning after some weeks with a child that is still unwell, it shouldn't be dismissed as something and nothing.

I think Drs seem to have gone from a default - here have some antibiotics, which was wrong to sending everyone away with a lecture on antibiotic resistance, which can be equally as wrong i feel.

I can think of two examples (at least) where anti-biotics/further investigation were appropraite but that was not the route followed.

I went to an OOH with really bad tonsilitis - man flu (even though im a woman) and felt terrible, im usually pretty stoic and i don't remember ever being so ill. I saw a trainee GP who examined my blistered, pustulating tonsils and proceeded to give me the AB resistance lecture - the experienced GP who was monitoring him, looked at me, raised his eyes to the sky and proceeded to write me up a prescription for big gun antibiotics. I went from feeling like i was about to die to feeling much better within 24 hours. I'm not saying i would have been in any more trouble than having to suffer feeling like shit for a few more days but my illness was clearly bacterial as I responded to the treatment.

The second example - more serious, a friend of mine's child was poorly with flu like symptoms (this may not be that accurate in terms of symptoms), she was due to fly abroad to see relatives in a few weeks, she returned to the Drs a few times during this time, made to feel like paranoid parent, told he would be OK to fly. Come the day before they were due to fly, my friends son was still very poorly, worse even, so she took him back to the Dr, who called an ambulance, suspected meningitis. It turned out to be leukemia and was very nearly, too late. Thankfully this was years back and he is in full remission now, but it could have been very different.

So yes, 90% of the time, it is a virus, and we absolutely should not be giving anti-biotics for viruses, and even some bacterial infections i believe we have perfectly functioning immune systems and we should not rely on anti-biotics but if there is ANY doubt (and not just in the Drs mind - parents are an excellent guage of how poorly their child is) testing for bacterial infection needs to be offered, blood tests, swabs, whatever. Yes AB resistance is a massive problem and ABs should not be handed out like they were, but people should not always be sent away to the chemist for paracetemol either. Sepsis can occur in hours and is easily preventable.

I wonder what the statistics are of the incidents of sepsis with relation to the holding back of anti-biotics and if there is a correlation. Of course i am willing to bet that resistance is probably more of an issue, then surely more testing is the way to go. Yep, its expensive but i think its a fair use of resources.

OP posts:
April2013 · 26/01/2016 17:08

I have had 111 tell me it is fine only to go to A and E and have my son admitted straight away and been told by 111 to go to A and E but then A and E say it is fine and send us home. I have a real problem with most GPs unfortunately, since being pregnant and having a baby and then toddler - they seem to have a default dismiss mode for all pregnant women and young children. Occasionally you get a good one but mostly it seems you have to be beyond persistent and sometimes very rude to get the service you need. And I know GPs are under a lot of stress but so are a lot of people and still it wouldn't hurt to take every patient seriously - they make people feel like a nuisance.

insan1tyscartching · 26/01/2016 17:13

Our GP is brilliant, adult ds went a fortnight ago with high temperature and flu symptoms. She prescribed antibiotics and ordered blood tests with instructions to come back if no better in two days. He went back the following day and the other GP firstly saw him before surgery as I'd phoned to say he was too ill to sit and wait. Then phoned to chase blood results and then sat with him whilst he waited for us to collect him to take him straight to hospital. Ds had a strain of flu that had wiped out his white cell count and septicemia. The GP even phoned the ward to ask about him the following day.

howabout · 26/01/2016 17:31

I think I would always trust my gut as a parent rather than any gp or 111 operator. I also agree with pp that you have to advocate for yourself and family because the nhs is not set up to do it for you.

toomuchtooold · 26/01/2016 17:31

fiddler
That one consultant probably cost you most than your regular GP is paid to be available for you all year.

Yep, and it's money well spent if the child needs the antibiotics and isn't getting them from the regular GP.

SleepIsForTheWeakAnyway · 26/01/2016 18:37

It's scary how many dangerous gp's are out there.

My dcousin first went to our GP when she was 16 with rectal bleeding and stomach aches. He fobbed her off. It was 6 years to to-ing and fro-ing with this GP refusing to refer her for anything other then psychological help (thinking she was making it up) before she was admitted to hospital and it was discovered that the slow growing tumour in her bowel was by then stage 4. Her death was entirely avoidable and solely down to the arrogance of this GP who had also missed potentially fatal conditions in myself and other family members.

As far as I know he is still practicing.

Ive since moved area and my named GP is also one if consider dangerous. Luckily the other gps in the practice are nice but I wouldn't let our named gp's near my DC.

I don't use the 111 service ever since they suggested sending an ambulance for my paint eating ds. Yes, he was blue around the lips but that was only because he had eaten the blue paint! I just wanted reassurance that it wasn't toxic/poisonous Confused

fiddleronthefoof · 26/01/2016 18:41

toomuch my point was that in a private consultation, you're likely to get what you ask for, whether you need it or not

hazeyjane · 26/01/2016 18:44

The case of the little boy with sepsis is so tragic. My friends ds died 16 years ago at a year old in very similar circumstances, my friend was sent away by 2 drs, and sent home from A+E. The next trip to A+E was too late and he was dead within hours of arriving.

We used 111 once, it was utterly useless and the GP who called us back after about 4 hours of waiting, apologised and said that she wouldn't recommend us using it again. Our ds is disabled, and his gp said that she felt it would be dangerous for us to rely on 111 if we felt he needed to be seen.

MiniCooperLover · 26/01/2016 18:56

My niece had a virus, it became sepsis and she spent 6 weeks in hospital on IV abs and now has heart damage, poor little mite. She is 2.5. To my knowledge the GP said 'it's a virus' and thankfully my SIL trusted her instinct and took her to A&E after my niece spent 2 days sleeping and only waking to drink a little fluid (a lot of which she threw up anyway). It's difficult because it often is 'just a virus' but sometimes it needs more investigation.

Mrsmorton · 26/01/2016 19:06

foof you are absolutely correct and our bias is to believe that the Dr who agrees with our diagnosis/treatment plan is the correct one which is why private GPs are so popular and wonderful... the relationship between ethics and money is an interesting one.

I think it's an impossible job being a GP, how do you tell which child out of the dozens you have seen with PFB worried parents needs to go to hospital? It's an impossible situation and one which sadly has tragic consequences.

Fretfulparent · 26/01/2016 19:15

This has helpful info including the traffic light system flowchart at the bottom.
patient.info/doctor/ill-and-feverish-child

bumbleymummy · 26/01/2016 19:19

Sugar Thanks The NHS guidelines do say that not all the symptoms for meningitis will appear and that the ones that do appear will not come in any particular order.

Pacific, viral meningitis is the milder one which doesn't usually require any treatment and doesnt tend to kill or disable. info here

frumpet · 26/01/2016 19:39

I do wonder if wider education of the the signs of sepsis would help ? People really can feel absolutely awful and still be OK , so knowing when to worry would be good . The sepsis six would not be much good in the community as this is a treatment plan designed for admitted patients . Surely there could be something that has triggers that parents/relatives could use that would mean they are more vocal in seeking appropriate treatment ?

sugar21 · 26/01/2016 19:42

Thanks bumbley Daisy died from MenB and the rash appeared when we got to hospital.
Thing is everybody does the glass test for a rash which itself is a good indicator but as you say a rash doesn't always appear.

Bubblesinthesummer · 26/01/2016 19:48

The NHS guidelines do say that not all the symptoms for meningitis will appear and that the ones that do appear will not come in any particular order.

I think it'should the fact people are told to look for a rash when ever it is talked about, which in our case never happened.

frumpet · 26/01/2016 19:51

Not that anyone who has lost someone to sepsis is in anyway to blame , but if the information was out there and set out in such a way , that say 3 out of 6 triggers would require further assessment/intervention , surely that would help ?

maddening · 26/01/2016 19:52

My mum said that years ago they would do a blood test to see if an were required. Before the blanket ab everything. Came in - obvs that was a mistake, so now they should look at doing more blood tests imo - particularly in children who. Have less resources that an adult

alteredimages · 26/01/2016 19:57

Flowers sugar. So sorry for your loss.

I was ill with menB as a toddler and DM was also fobbed off by the GP. Also no rash, and it never did appear despite me being very very ill. Luckily I had a febrile convulsions so DM called an ambulance and I was taken to hospital. DM has always said that if I hadn't had that convulsions she didn't think I would be here.

Viral meningitis can also be very serious bumbleymummy

sugar21 · 26/01/2016 19:58

Bubbles I've just read the NHS page and almost at the bottom it does state that the rash is not always present. I was looking for a rash on Daisy while waiting to see GP but I couldn't see anything. Have to give my GP credit though because he said he was 99% sure it was meningitis and get to hospital

Bubblesinthesummer · 26/01/2016 20:11

We couldn't praise the Drs enough either Sugar.

His entire stay in hospital couldn't be faulted and he was in for a long time.

AmberNectarine · 26/01/2016 20:14

I've had sepsis. I had a silent uti, which lead to a kidney infection which wasn't that bad and I would have probably left it another day but DH insisted I go in to be seen on a Sunday as I was 6m pg. Shortly after I arrived at hospital the rigours set in and my pulse was over 200. My notes described me as moribund but at no point did I have a temp (classic sepsis symptom). Luckily a fast thinking doctor diagnosed sepsis, got some anti-B's into me and saved my life, but if I hadn't been in hospital at the time, I probably would have died at home.

It's not always a straightforward diagnosis.

SchnooSchnoo · 26/01/2016 20:27

I took my dd to the GP when she had had a fever for ten days, and was told 'it's normal, it's just a virus'. Turns out she had a severe immune deficiency and required a bone marrow transplant (which she has now had, doing well).

Arguably, it's a very rare condition, and he couldn't have known, but I knew there was more too it, and I knew what a normal childhood virus looked like and that something wasn't right.

I think the problem must be that they see so many people who do have a minor virus that they don't really know who's worrying unnecessarily, and who's got valid concerns. Not sure what can be done about it, but I generally trust my instincts, as I tend to know when something's not right.

TheoriginalLEM · 26/01/2016 20:34

frumpet Tue 26-Jan-16 19:51:21

Not that anyone who has lost someone to sepsis is in anyway to blame , but if the information was out there and set out in such a way , that say 3 out of 6 triggers would require further assessment/intervention , surely that would help ?

This is exactly what the little boys mum was saying on the radio today - the reason she is putting herself through the trauma of the interviews etc, she wants to make people aware. Like many, she hadn't even heard of sepsis and had no idea what "red flags" she might have noticed.

One of the things that she commented on was the fact that the 111 system doesn't allow for any deviation or intuition, that you might get if you were speaking to a medically trained clinician. She told the operater her DS's temperature was 35 degrees, so that was passed over, she tried to explain that he had a temperature of 40 the day before and the operator wouldnt acknowledge it because they have to follow the computor. This was deemed highly significant because a drop in temperature can be a sign of someone with sepsis deteriorating. Had she been talking to someone who was medically trained, this might have rung alarm bells.

She was so very brave - it was difficult to listen to. She wants people to talk about it, obviously because the 111 system is not working but also to raise awareness of one of the biggest killers in medicine.

OP posts:
HippyPottyMouth · 26/01/2016 20:37

My Dad, typical stoical Northern bloke, was fobbed off 3 times with 'it's a virus.' It was cancer of the oesophagus. By the time it was diagnosed it was too advanced to fix it. He died.

Itsmine · 26/01/2016 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bumbleymummy · 26/01/2016 20:38

Bubbles, the info re viral meningitis came from the meningitis.org website I linked to.