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Original poster

To thjink that MPs should not legistate on whether the church of england should hold same sex marriages

190 replies

ReallyTired · 11/01/2016 13:02

I feel its right that religious organisations are not forced to hold gay marriage cermonies. Freedom of religion is as important as equality for homosexuals. I feel that the matter of same sex marriages should be a matter of conscience for a religious leader. No synagogue, mosque or church should be forced to support gay marriage.

However I am unhappy that the church of england has been banned by MPs who may not even be christian from holding gay marriage cermonies. I feel that the matter of gay marriage should be decided by the general synod of the church of england. Our local priest offers to bless civil partnerships and I am sure she would be very happy to conduct a same sex wedding.

I would like homosexuals to be offered a list of churches where the priest would be happy to bless a gay marriage. I do not like homosexuals being shut out of our churches. (Assuming that the homosexual couple has a connection with a church or that its their nearest church which is prepared to carry out a blessing. As far as possible homosexual couples should meet the same criteria rules as hetrosexual couples.)

OP posts:
Pollyputhtekettleon · 12/01/2016 19:10

I think equality always should trump discrimination. So if it takes the state to intervene to ensure all people are treated equal and the church doesn't discriminate against ordinary decent people who are not doing anything unlawful, then I'm fine with the churches religious freedom being stepped upon.

If the church didn't allow black people to marry there I would hope the state would intervene there too.

Andrewofgg · 12/01/2016 19:44

Polly - let's face it, neither the British nor the European legislator is going to tell the Catholic or the Greek Orthodox Church, or the orthodox Jewish bodies, or any other religious outfit, that they must start ordaining women. And that's the greatest inequality perpetuated in the name of religion in the West.

nextusername · 12/01/2016 20:15

The fact that you aren't born with something doesn't mean it was a choice that it happened to you though. Lots of things happen to people that aren't choices.

cleaty · 12/01/2016 22:14

You could argue that people do not choose their political beliefs either. But political beliefs are not grounds to be exempt from equality discrimination laws.

nextusername · 12/01/2016 23:09

No, of course not... and I don't think the church should be exempt from equality discrimination laws.

OurBlanche · 13/01/2016 08:01

So, it isn't the government you need to talk to, next. You'll need to go to Europe. They say that same sex marriage is not a human right.

There is a UK factsheet that explains the UK Act, it's a pdf: Marriage (Same Sex Couples)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_%28Same_Sex_Couples%29_Act_2013

BigDorrit · 13/01/2016 08:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OurBlanche · 13/01/2016 08:33

But that's the wrong way round, according to the ECHR.

The UK government have sanctioned same sex marriage despite it not being a legal imperative under the ECHR ruling. So the standard line across Europe is that there is no right to a same sex marriage. The CofE is in line with that.

It is the right to same sex marriage that is the oddity, according to the ECHR. It is the government that is out of step with the ECHR, not the church.

LurkingHusband · 13/01/2016 08:43

If the CofE would like to disentangle itself from the government and lose it's massive privileges (clue; they would rather give up their god than their privileges)

Don't forget the CofE is a massive landowner

www.theguardian.com/world/2006/apr/28/religion.anglicanism

Doubtless it would be tasteless and possible blasphemous to suggest that if the CofE really gave a flying fuck about the plight of the homeless, they could give 12,000 acres (i.e. just 10% of some of their land) to build new homes on. If I were Archbish of Cant, it's what I would do. (Readers with more time on their hands may speculate on the causality of those two facts).

Now I would not profess to follow any religion - although ironically, I like learning about them. But I find it hard to look at any church and believe it's what the Bible says.

BigDorrit · 13/01/2016 09:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OurBlanche · 13/01/2016 09:39

Beg pardon? I think you may have misunderstood something, BigDorrit.

BigDorrit · 13/01/2016 17:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
ReallyTired · 13/01/2016 20:58

I bet that churches in France, Italy or Germany or Ireland won't be forced to marry gays.

OP posts:
BigDorrit · 13/01/2016 23:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OurBlanche · 14/01/2016 15:06

I was responding to those saying the church should not be allowed to discriminate. I am pointing out that the EHCR does not count same sex marriage as a human right, therefore their is no discrimination if a church chooses not to allow same sex couple marry in them.

So no, it is not irrelevant. It is the root cause of the law being put in place, here in England. To allow the church to retain its choice whilst the secular arm of the state chooses to allow same sex marriages.

And also explains, Really, why no church in any European country will be "forced to marry gays".

All a bit of a moot point, when you know what the laws and rights that pertain actually are.

LiberalPedant · 14/01/2016 21:27

The Anglican Communion has suspended the US church.

www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/index.html

niminypiminy · 14/01/2016 21:49

Also, following on from OurBlanche's point, parish priests have by law to marry any couple who either live in the parish or have a qualifying connection. Like civil registrars (and unlike humanist celebrants, RC priests, rabbis, ministers of other denominations), they can't refuse.

So a priest who had an in principle objection to marrying a same-sex couple could not refuse to do so if the CofE was permitted by law to perform same-sex marriages. That's a different legal position from all other denominations.

You might say 'well, priests shouldn't have an in principle objection to same-sex marriage', or you might say 'the principles of the priest shouldn't matter', or you might say 'they should go and be a priest in some other denomination then'.

As a member of the CofE I would love to see the same-sex couples married in the CofE. I hope and pray that it will happen.

redstrawberry10 · 14/01/2016 22:02

You might say 'well, priests shouldn't have an in principle objection to same-sex marriage', or you might say 'the principles of the priest shouldn't matter', or you might say 'they should go and be a priest in some other denomination then'.

see, that's the problem with an established church. I don't think priests should solemnize marriages they don't agree with, but unfortunately if you work for the state church you should have to.

hedgehogsdontbite · 14/01/2016 22:03

I bet that churches in France, Italy or Germany or Ireland won't be forced to marry gays.

Churches in France don't marry anyone.

niminypiminy · 14/01/2016 22:13

see, that's the problem with an established church. I don't think priests should solemnize marriages they don't agree with, but unfortunately if you work for the state church you should have to.

Doctors and who have an principled objection to abortion can refuse to agree a termination, and can also refuse to perform one - yet they work for the state health service. But your argument would mean that they had to act against their principles because they are employed by the state.

I think a better solution for same-sex marriage and the CofE would be something close to what happens regarding abortion in the NHS, that priests would nominate someone in their benefice or deanery who would be willing to deputize for them. It could be solved without dismantling the hugely tangled legal relationship between the state and the CofE.

redstrawberry10 · 14/01/2016 22:19

Doctors and who have an principled objection to abortion can refuse to agree a termination, and can also refuse to perform one - yet they work for the state health service. But your argument would mean that they had to act against their principles because they are employed by the state.

the grounds for objecting abortion (some people believe it's murder) are wholly different objecting to gay marriage.

redstrawberry10 · 14/01/2016 22:20

I think a better solution for same-sex marriage and the CofE would be something close to what happens regarding abortion in the NHS, that priests would nominate someone in their benefice or deanery who would be willing to deputize for them.

or the CofE can go tell non-members to go to the local council or their own church. why is that not better?

nextusername · 14/01/2016 22:22

or the CofE can go tell non-members to go to the local council or their own church. why is that not better?

Gay people aren't necessarily "non-members" of the church. There are plenty of gay people who are members of the CofE.

niminypiminy · 14/01/2016 22:27

And also: priests in the CofE are legally obliged to marry anyone living in their parish, or with a qualifying connection to the parish. You don't have to be a member of the CofE to be married in it.

Devora · 14/01/2016 22:28

I'm a bit confused by this thread - did you see the date on that link? This was all part of the politics of getting equal civil marriage through - the CoE was in effect banned from doing gay weddings to guarantee that it wouldn't be sued for not doing so.