To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

[longtimelurker101]

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

Lurker no, there aren't other posts saying the opposite to me. There are anecdotes from other people who found that a uniform helped to hide their particular socioeconomic disadvantage.

But the point is that, if a uniform was truly a leveller, it would actually succeed in making socioeconomic differences invisible. And it doesn't, as my and many other posts show.

The leveller argument doesn't hold if only works some of the time, and doesn't work for the kids who need it most.

Yeah, all the wankers going was definitely a big plus. But there was something else as well - it was almost like we'd been in this secret club that we weren't allowed to express and then suddenly we found each other. I think we'd have found each other sooner if we hadn't had to wear uniform every day for the five years previous to that, and maybe got a sense of belonging/support consequently.

in London you can have super wealthy kids sitting in classes with kids from the council estate who are getting help from the school even to get the uniform

Yes, my non-uniform school at secondary level was like this. It was a very expensive smart school with some children from very poor homes, including those from council houses ( one of my best friends lived in a tiny flat that was council property). There was no clothes-based bullying at all that I was ever aware of (I wasn't rich or poor but definitely towards the poorer end of the spectrum). People wore some frankly odd things, both the rich and poor, but it was just accepted as normal. People were choosing what they liked to wear within their own personal budgets. And it ranged all the way from my headmistress who liked to swan about in Chanel down to my friend who wore an ex-army parka with an appliqué design of a large root vegetable that she'd done herself pretty much 24/7. Most people wore jeans and jumpers or a skirt and a T shirt or whatever was comfortable and they liked. I wore a pair of canvas shoes that I painted in orange and blue for about two years straight. They were frankly horrible and quite holey after the first few months but nobody cared and I liked them. There was a real sense of live and let live about people's choices. We were being judged solely on our minds. School is for developing your mind, not your prejudices.

My daughter attends a state primary, a very ordinary one which is fairly unpopular locally. It had no uniform when we picked it, though they later brought one in unfortunately. I was really struck by how similar the atmosphere and sense of purpose reminded me of my previous school. I do put it down to non-uniform. It is much easier to feel that you are in a shared endeavour with your teachers if there are no markers making it us and them.

But their broad strokes aren't they, it hides inequalites in a broad way, it can never compensate fully.

Anyway the original question was do parents want uniform and the marjority answer, for a variety of reasons seems to be yes.

I can totally agree that other countries manage without it, and that the UK may be successful at doing this too.

Its definately an issue that has some many factors involved in it.

So nooka - no comparison to be made them really!

As I have said I am only go by my experience of over twenty years teaching in some very deprived areas. In my opinion uniform works because these days the very poor kids get the uniform provided for them (even shoes). Schools also provide uniform for other children.

What influences a lot of posters is that things were bad when they were at school - but it has got better - especially in the last ten years (although getting worse again now thanks to cuts but that is a separate issue).

My own experience of school is being so poor that my mum knit my school jumper out of one of my dads that she unraveled but the only thing I was bullied about was my 'leprosy' face as I had a skin condition. I don't think anyone ever made comments about me living in a council house and having a dad who was ill and unable to work? The only time I felt that was in the sixth form when we could dress is what we wanted - amongst all the preppie/yuppie styles were a few of us that developed our own style via the charity shops.
At 16/17/18 I was old enough for that and glad I didn't have to suffer this type of pressure in school.

Oh and for info most of the schools at the top of the Piza test list (that our government hold in such great esteem) all wear uniform.

The Joanna Lumley programme showed children in Beijing wearing a smart tracksuit in the classroom. That I would be in favour of. Practical and very smart. Not so many bits to wash and no ironing. So much easier in every way.

Chilly - I can't see some of my pupils agreeing to wearing a tracksuit though! They chose the uniform and we were all amazed when they went with the blazer -
They all seem to like it.

nooka there is a girl at DD's school with rainbow coloured dreadlocks - DD thinks she looks cool but has no desire to copy her - there are 2000 (yes, two thousand) children in her school and she is the only one with a dramatically non conventional hair style, (no uniform - Germany) though there are quite a few boys with long hair and a few girls with the side shaved and / or non-natural shades of red or pink hair.

If you don't make a massive fuss about what kids wear or what they do with their hair it appears most of them just pull on jeans and a T shirt and stick their hair in a ponytail... nothing to rebel against, no need to agonise about what to wear because you can always wear what your want - no big deal, to anyone.

The suits for 6th form idea is really bizarre if the justification is based on the world of work - how many jobs actually require a suit? How many of those 6th formers will be going straight into a suit wearing type of office job (rather than to uni where there is, I sincerely hope, not yet a dress code... or to work in IT, where the "uniform" is Geek T shirt and jeans...

Its over a decade since I left teaching in the UK, but hundreds of cumulative teaching hours certainly were lost to enforcing uniform rules back then - heads of department and senior managers especially would keep classes queued outside their rooms until everyone had their top buttons done up and their ties tied properly, generally letting them into the room a good 5 minutes per class after the lesson began - 30 minutes per teacher per day lost, before adding in the "serious" infringements which took up more time, and the year 10 and 11 bottom sets who always had members who would deliberately set out to derail classes with uniform infringements and ask teachers why they weren't "sorting out" whoever was violating the uniform code.

There were always kids in each year who would be sent in wearing dirty/ very outgrown/ torn/ faded uniform, so I am not sure it is a leveller at all. I think it is a spotlight and a focus, drawing attention to and focusing the minds of children and staff on clothing. If everyone is wearing the same, subtle differences stand out more not less. Children work harder to show their personality/ group identity through the way they subvert the uniform and through accessories/ shoes etc. and the rare non uniform days become a fashion parade because their rarity focusses the minds of the children on what is worn on those days.

I went to a private school and remember the entire school being made to stand on benches in the assembly hall so the head mistress could more easily inspect our socks... and there was an entire mythology and slang vocabulary around the uniform...

Ties are also an entire topic unto themselves - I've forgotten what the slang term was for the way kids would grab other kids' ties in the corridor and yank on them to pull the tie knot so tight it was nearly impossible to work loose...

If American High School films are mockumentaries on non uniform schools, is St. Trinians a treatise on how British school-girls express their tribal identities through their uniforms?

Schwabi... at my school its called a "swot knot" it is popular amongst year 8 boys.

Scwab see my post about how things have changed in the last ten years.

It is standard in the U.K. to wear uniform and the majority of posters and teachers on here say it works.

It will stay as a majority too - comparisons to countries that don't have it are futile as too many people here like what it offers.

Teens have plenty of time out of school to develop individuality and express themselves and at 16 are free to do that full time (unless at a sixth form with a ridiculous business uniform!)

The leveller argument is one that people won't agree on - I see it day in day out as a positive thing and can give hundreds of examples of where it has worked - but others have their own experiences. But that's life I guess

Peanutting here!

Oh we have peanutting too! Just they shout "swot knot" when they do it to each other, Year 8 boys eh?

At my school it was the in thing to pick out the stitches of your tie (with a compass during maths lessons usually) and then colour in the bit of backing fabric as you wished. Of course, this landed you a detention. I actually feel quite sad at the fact that this was looked on as self-expression.

Even if you didn't do this, it was terminally uncool to wear the tie as it 'should' be worn - what you were after was a little knot, a little bit of skinny hanging down, and the rest tucked into your shirt. Also, if you wore your socks pulled up you were a virgin and therefore also (of course) terminally uncool.

And that's before you even get into the complexities of skirt length/trouser width.

Now, see, that to me is all a normal response to a weird fetishistic approach to appearance.

It is all complicated true enough.

Skirt length in my current school isn't an issue, its a new school and the builders of course didn't put enough seating in. So a lot of the girls sit on the floor in the wide corridors in groups to chat, their skirts are long enough for them to do this comfortably.

In my last place it was short, tight lyra body con type things, which are fine if thats what you like, a bit unfair on male colleagues who all looked at their feet when going up the stairs though!

Cruikshank I remember doing that! The ties ties today are printed patterns not woven so no such fun to be had!
Fashion seems to be neat ties and top buttons done up at the moment

I think it makes life easier! And children less likely to be picked on becuase of not conforming to latest fashions

Tsk at neat ties. These kids know nothing, nothing I tell you.

Ah but see you can't be as bored as you used to be, there's much more fun to be had trying to sneak your phone out so you can whatsapp your mate: " In maths. Lol"

We had fun with our compasses godammit. There's a lot to be said for lo-fi entertainment.

Oh we had fun with ties when we used to tie them so they were really short and fat.

This debate has been interesting though Cruik, I can see the arguments for not having a uniform as well those for. As I said at the beginning as a teacher I could give or take it but think there are some broad reasons that it is positive, as a parent I liked it but felt that it was a PITA when DS was growing fast.

But again, I'd say that there is a majority backing for uniform in the U.K, and no one seems to be swayed by either set of arguments for or against, so it very much looks like that is the way it is going to stay for now.

Or trying to get teachers to make Siri beatbox on their iPhones ...

Oh did you have that one too? Funny!

'But their broad strokes aren't they, it hides inequalites in a broad way, it can never compensate fully.'

So not even useful for the poorly thought out intention it was supposed to serve.