To think that the answer to getting rid of puppy farms and thus millions of unwanted dogs is to ban the buying and selling of dogs for money?

[wannaBe]

We see thread after thread on here about people who inadvertently, and sometimes not so inadvertently buy puppies from unscrupulous breeders who are only in it for the money. The trade in designer mongrels crossbreeds is big business, with people paying sometimes up to £1500 for a dog just because it looks cute, and the breeders raking in the cash from their several bitches which they breed to the point of exhaustion before getting rid of them.

And even the breeders who only breed a litter or two still make money from the exchanges. And let's not pretend that just because someone is KC registered they aren't in it for the money.

There have been all sorts of suggestions as to how this can be resolved, make breeders be registered/only allow them to breed certain numbers a year being just a couple. But in truth there is no way to police this and once a dog is pregnant there is no way of doing anything humane about it, after all, no-one would advocate destroying a fourth litter when the breeder had already bred three that year, for instance?

For me the answer is simple. If it was simply illegal to buy and sell puppies then the puppy farms would have no incentive to exist. If the law was very clear that by advertising dogs for sale you were breaking the law, no-one would actually pay money for puppies, and the sites like gumtree would not be allowed to advertise them.

The exception could be made for e.g. The cost of vaccinations/micro chippinG so that genuine breeders wouldn't be out of pocket, but actually, if you were breeding for the good of the breed the food etc would still be the breeder's responsibility.

Take the prophet out of puppies and the need to breed so many of them would no longer exist.

"the PDSA provides a excellent training ground for Vets."

The PDSA pay their vets a proper salary or, sometimes, pay independent Veterinary Practices for consultation services.

This is entirely funded by public donations.

The type of people who buy from the backyard breeders are the type that want a status symbol, not a dog. They have badly behaved animals because they can't be bothered with them
Sorry, but that's nonsense. Both of my dogs came from people I expect you would call BYB - both are crosses. They're not perfect, but they're reasonably well behaved, and are not status symbols. Ditto a lot of dogs I know.

Interestingly, I have known three dogs who were taken back by their breeders: two pedigree (one breeder definitely what would be defined as a BYB; other I don't know about) and one a terrier-type. Two of those dogs were rehomed, and the third was kept by her ('backyard') breeders until she died.

""he PDSA pay their vets a proper salary or, sometimes, pay independent Veterinary Practices for consultation services. ""

I know it's funded via donations.

I had cause to use them, in 2003 and when I went the Vet asked if a Trainie could sit in on the consultation. When my friend was qualifying she was doing something in the one by me, because she popped into mine, before going home.

That may not happen now, with changes in qualifying criteria etc.

In the interest of fairness, I'll add a disclaimer: I am a registered breeder in Australia, and have been one for the last twenty years.

I firmly believe that the best way to eradicate the prolific backyard breeders and puppy farms is buyer education. It is common knowledge now that before you buy a second hand car, you make sure you get it checked out. So why are people so willing to buy a puppy from someone they have never met and who won't allow them to see their home, expect ongoing support and a guarantee of health? Teach people what to look for, what to ask, and what is and isn't ethical.

As for profit, there is a very valid reason why the Australian Taxation Office want to know nothing about it, and consider dog breeding to be a 'hobby' not a business. If you add up all the costs involved over time, there is no profit. Trust me, we'd all love to declare our puppy 'income' and offset it against the rest of our expenses and wages, but they won't let us. I have paid out far more than I will ever make back in what I charge for a puppy, and that's fine, I don't do it for profit, I do it for my breed, but if I were unable to charge anything at all, well then it would certainly be out of my league as it only really covers the costs of the health testing, microchipping, vaccinating and basic expenses of having a litter. It doesn't cover the feeding of my dogs, show and trial entries, training fees, equipment, health testing of the sire and dams, and the biggest expense for me in a rare breed is importing of new dogs and semen to benefit my bloodlines (this alone is costing me around $20,000AUD this year alone).

Teach people where to buy their dogs from. Take away the market on backyard breeders and puppy farms or make them step up their game and do it correctly if they want to breed dogs. It's the only way to make changes. Stop targeting the people who are doing the right thing by their animals.

I've read through this whole thread and I'm surprised to see only one poster query the assumption that spaying should be routine for bitches.

We have two gorgeous unspayed bitch cocker spaniels, having grown up with unspayed bitch spaniels. None of them suffered medical conditions through being unspayed.

Spaying is not risk free. For example my mother's spayed springer was left with urinary incontinence, which got worse as the dog got older. Coats are also ruined - they go from silky smooth to curly, and there is still some debate about personality changes.

An unspayed female dog requires sacrifices - eg we tend to have to go on family lockdown during seasons, because the dogs can no longer go to a dog crèche when required and it can be a real pain at holiday time, so it's not for everyone - but those are issues of personal convenience, as opposed to dog health. I am really surprised by this seemingly universal assumption that female dogs should be spayed unless they are going to be bred from.

That's interesting, figment. I knew urinary incontinence was a risk, and that spaying changed sighthound coats but didn't know that was a general thing. I have always assumed, though, that spaying is the safest bet due to the risk of pyometra (our bitch's mother died of that, so I was glad we'd got her spayed). Are some breeds more at risk of it than others?

Midnite, yes to this:
I firmly believe that the best way to eradicate the prolific backyard breeders and puppy farms is buyer education.

YABU. Some chickens are reared in appalling conditions. By your logic we should ban the sale of all chickens.

I could think of many other examples but can't be arsed.

Maybe other options of doggy contraception need to be looked at. Would a doggy mirena coil work or a contraceptive injection? Would it be possible to sterilise a dog without removing reproductive organs by key hole surgery to avoid ruining the coat.

Collaborate - there isn't a problem with over-full chicken rescue centres, so I don't think it can be compared.

The appalling standards some chickens are kept in meet the welfare standards of the RSPCA, which says an awful lot about them!

Massive apologies, this is a Daily Mail link, but it seemed the best to give the information. It's about the Swiss dog licensing system, which ensures that owners are educated about dog care etc. here

That sounds very sensible, for dog owners and farmers in general.
:o @ Rule-loving Swiss

It's absolutely sick that people put creatures through pregnancy, birth and infant-rearing for profit. How on earth can anyone think they have the right to do that? It baffles me.

The only thing you're being unreasonable about is saying people breeding "properly" should be allowed to sell puppies to cover "their" costs. It's the bitch who pays the most, and what does she get out of it? Fuck all.

Animals are bred for all kinds of purposes whether it's the meat trade, animal experimentation or the pet market. I see no problem with animals being sold provided there are good safeguards to protect animal welfare.

Maybe we need to think how to produce pedigree dogs in a safe, humane way that meets demand. Young pups also need to be socialised and I don't think dog farms do that. I also think that if dogs become unaffordable then we are more likely to go to back street dealers.

If the only way dogs (and most other domestic pets) could breed was of their own volition they would quickly die out.

merrymouse I take it that that does not apply to rabbits who would take over the world if they were left to their own devices

If the only way dogs (and most other domestic pets) could breed was of their own volition they would quickly die out.
???! Leave dogs to get on with it - which is what I assume what you mean, merrymouse, by 'of their own volition' and most (though not all) domestic dogs would reproduce like billy-o. Take people out of the equation and the dog population multiplies merrily. The number of feral dogs around the world is testament to that.

There are some breeds e.g. English bulldogs which are such a unnatural shape that they have real problems reproducing without assistance, but your average terrier, pointer, spaniel etc would crack right on: mate, whelp and nurse the puppies.

Kaki, what are you on about? There is clearly something 'in' mating and reproducing for the average bitch, given a bitch in season is very eager to mate. Animals, in the wild, breed. No one makes them do it.

If the only way dogs (and most other domestic pets) could breed was of their own volition they would quickly die out.

Yeah right! I've got both dogs and bitches, and I can guarantee that if they were left to their own devices that I would have a backyard full of puppies. The girls are little tarts when they are in season, and the boys are complete buggers about trying to find ways of getting to them. Three doors or gates between them at all times!

So if dogs were left to themselves - because we were gone from the scene - would they become more and more mongrel and what would the final result look like?

Dogs left to their own devices would certainly breed, but that would just lead to feral dogs who would be treated as pests, rounded up and killed.

So yes, there are plenty of wild dogs in the world, but they are not tolerated in the UK. We have domestic pets who depend on humans to give their puppies a home. The number of people who are willing or able to look after and then rehome random unplanned puppies is very small.

I'm in 100% agreement with you OP.

I really think the general attitude towards animals we keep as pets has to change. People talk themselves blue in the face justifying the hundreds of pounds they spent on a backyard bred (at best) crossbreed. A pet only needs to glance in the wrong direction and the overwhelming cry is "get rid".

I don't know the answer but something has to change. I'm not hopeful though.

Low cost neutering for cats and dogs is one of the answers here plus the banning of selling animals on Scumtree.

This has been an interesting post. I know nothing about dogs as I don't own (and don't really like) them, but I saw an advert on Schpock the other day - 9 week old puppy as it was 'too much' for the family.

I'm a complete dog neophyte but even I know that is so wrong

Andrew, you'd probably end up with dogs like the pariah dogs of Africa, India etc, though possibly if lots of rough-coated dogs were in the initial mix they wouldn't all be close coated like pariah dogs tend to be.

merrymouse, I don't understand what you are saying. On the one hand, dogs left alone would die out, on the other that we'd end up with lots of real dogs we'd just kill... In countries were dogs (that have owners) usually run loose, bitches are generally confined during their seasons and a litter can still be a planned litter. If the dam is not feral, the puppies will not be feral.