To think firemen should be trained up as paramedics

[LunchpackOfNotreDame]

There is a shortfall in paramedics, and fire services are now leaning more toward prevention and road traffic accident work.

Would it make sense, as they're often first responders, to train fire officers up as paramedics?

Lazy bastard public services! They should all train be trained in everything and let's pay them 50p!

I was at some CCG/higher education institution mixed meeting yesterday and I think you might not be too far off the mark. They reckon soon nurses will just be nurses, no separate mental health, paediatric, etc and that they might even lump physios, OT, SALT, under the same one size fits all training qualification. People will just be health professionals and do a bit of on the job speciality training after qualification.

As paramedics, we're trained more and more in 'out of hospital' care rather than exclusively pre hospital care, trauma is a very small part of our role. More and more people are being treated and then left at home or referred to alternative care pathways which is different to the system in other countries. We have a lot more autonomy and I can only see that increasing as demand increases.

I have no wish to be trained as a firefighter nor do I have the capability. It is a highly skilled job and I think it demands a different skill set to that of a paramedic.

"I was at some CCG/higher education institution mixed meeting yesterday and I think you might not be too far off the mark. They reckon soon nurses will just be nurses, no separate mental health, paediatric, etc and that they might even lump physios, OT, SALT, under the same one size fits all training qualification. People will just be health professionals and do a bit of on the job speciality training after qualification."

That is possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I take it no (for example) physio's or SALT's were witness to this little wheeze? If ever there were two professions with nothing in common. You might as well compare a teacher to a solicitor.

Many firefighters in rural areas have part-time 'on-call' roles. Difficult to expect them to add paramedic training on top of their firefighting role when they probably already have another job too.

Well a fireman I know has said our local brigade now have signed a contract to use 3 fireman in a small engine to go buy bread , milk and settle in old folk when they are released from hospital and are dropped off by ambulance staff. Make them a cup of tea and put them to bed .... They surely become a fire fighter to fight fires and cut ppl out of cars not to become a nurse ! I think way too much is expected of the service these days due to cuts when this fireman's colleague went and got himself a part time job in pizza express waitering and got more money for a saturday shift with tips than he would a shift in the fire service after paying tax and his pension contributions ... something is very wrong !

Fire FIGHTERS

My husband is a retained firefighter currently taking part in a first responder trial. They are expected to be the first on scene to cardiac arrests, serious car accidents etc after an amazing TWO DAYS of training in basic first aid. The same course you and I go on for first aid at work training. They exist simply because the ambulance cannot get here quick enough, because there are not enough ambulances.

He also has another job which means he often can't attend brigade training courses, never mind finding the time to train as a Paramedic.

My husband is incredibly concerned he's going to turn up to the scene of a cardiac arrest and be expected to 'do something' other than basic life support for which he is simply not trained. And have they had a payrise for.this? No. No they have not. Two jobs for the price of one. If you want them to be the same profession then it would actually be cheaper and take less time to train up Paramedics as firefighters, rather than the other way around. Although I can't see that being a popular move.

Sorry Maple you got there first!

I am a uniformed member of the Fire & Rescue service. OP, get a grip. They are two very different jobs. If you had any idea of the demands placed on today's firefighters or paramedics you wouldn't have even CONSIDERED creating this thread.

The NHS has more than enough money thrown at it with extremely bad management. The public expectation of the ambulance service is too high. It is the sad case (that I have seen in more than one instance, in fact quite often) that ambulances aren't available because they are tied up with bullshit cases. I have experienced a teenager almost de scalped who's life could have been saved if it were not for the nearest ambulance travelling 50+ miles to arrive. He died. With four of his friends. The fifth survived with life changing injuries.

Firefighter numbers are being cut on an almost daily basis. We have situations now where the nearest fire engine to a house fire with persons reported is in excess of 20 minutes away. A house can be destroyed within a quarter of that time.

You cannot presume that "emergency services" covers everything under that umbrella, they are different jobs entirely. It is no where near as straightforward as you assume. If you want further information Asti why you are welcome to PM me.

*as to

Foam and defib do not sit well together. tbh in a major smash all the emergency services cross cover. But the police had stab proof vest, firefighters fire retardant clothing and the paramedics can work unencumbered.

Why not send them out with a set of kitchen knives and a copy of Gray's anatomy and they can perform routine operations as well?

Maybe after they've done that, they could teach Year 9 double maths at the local school and why not fit some sweeping brushes to the fire engine, so that they can sweep the streets as they drive back to the station?

My recent jobs involved dealing with a cardiac arrest where I intubated, ventilated put in an IO needle into the patients bone, delivered adrenaline, glucose and fluids, comforted the family when our efforts were unsuccessful, I also picked up the elderly off the floor, made them tea and toast and listened to their stories, I held a 96 year olds hand whilst they drew their last breath, informed their family plus many other jobs where no intervention was necessary and we weren't really needed.
Do you really think that the fire service have time to train to do all that, to say nothing of the time to actually spend on scene? There training to do their job is extensive enough.

I have also recently attended a fire with persons reported, arriving to find firefighters performing CPR, they did a fantastic job but the relief on their faces when we rocked up was almost palpable. They know their limitations just as we know ours, we were so grateful they were there to deal with the actual fire and to willingly lend a hand to help get the patient downstairs and carry our kit.

If everyone could do everything the term 'jack of all trades and master of none' springs to mind.

i was reading about the 'cuts' to the fire service.....years ago there was more fires....not many people have open fire/chimneys nowadays, we have fire retardent materials, there are policies in place for fire safety in most buildings, hospital offices etc....there has been a lot of reduction in fires due to this. So where does this leave the fire service....the cuts are happening i think because there are a lots of firefighter who go on shift and get paid for doing nothing all day/night....my neighbour is an example....he will go on a night shift and do nothing all night except sleep....if there is a call out he complains about how he had a busy night!.....if he sleeps all night he comes home and does gardening, decorating etc.....and he only seems to do 3 maybe 4 shifts a week.....hes always at home...im not saying its a doddle,if he has a busy night its probably horrendous but he can work 4 nights and sleep all those nights without being disturbed if there are no call outs...he openly boasts about it !.......i think going down the paramedic route isnt a bad idea....its what they do in the USA

When firefighters are there as first responders, it's because there's a fire or because they are cutting someone out of wreckage.

If they start stabilising and moving the injured, who will fight the fires and rescue the trapped?

If I end up in a car crash and hopefully that never happens I want fully trained experts doing what needs to be done. I want firefighters cutting the car apart to get me out as they are experts in this and I want paramedics treating my injuries as again they are the experts. Jack of all trades and master of none would be true.

I had this conversation SO many times when I was stood with my dad and his colleagues on the picket line outside his station in 2002.

And at the end of the day what it comes down to is this:

When your house catches fire which do you want:

A) a group of men ready and waiting and prepared to jump straight into their engine and race to your family's rescue

B) a group of firemen out attending someone with a broken leg who they can't leave until the ambulance arrived to collect them and then have to pack up their gear before they even start getting you

Firemen are there to respond FIRST to incidents of fire, chemical leaks, nuclear threat, terrorist events, gas events, flood and storm events, train crashes, road traffic accidents, plane crashes, as well as carrying out public fire prevention, education, corporate risk assessments.

And you want them to be trained as paramedics as well?

If we need more paramedics TRAIN KORE PARAMEDICS!

Cyanara I like it when the firies and coppers refer to paramedics as ambulance drivers. It's always fun to call them police car or fire truck drivers

I am an ex-paramedic in Australia and there is no way I want the firies working as paramedics. They can do the basics but that is it. I can't use road accident rescue equipment any more then they can cannulate or tube someone.

Given the state of the ambulance services there (LAS has just recruited 100's of grads from here as they need them and we have too many) and the stories I was told when living in the UK and from ex UK ambos now working here there is no way in hell I would join the ambulance service there. It just seems as if the services are about to collapse. Making firies ambos is just asking for trouble.

I thought in France their version of the fireservice (the Pompiers) are also trained in providing medical help - I'm not certain to what level though I understood it was to quite a high level? Not as high as their SAMU (the equivalent of our emergency ambulance brigade) but a lot higher than simple first aid.

What a fucking idiotic post. Do you have any idea what being a paramedic entails? Training as a paramedic is a highly competitive (to get onto) degree course, requiring a wide skill set and a great deal of academic ability as well as people skills. They are medical professionals. What on earth makes you think that firefighters would all be suitable for a quick conversion course and to practice a completely different profession alongside the one they've trained for? Is it because they also drive vehicles with flashing blue lights?

Sadly, you are not alone in this - the powers that be are already pushing for more and more merging of services, and insisting that firefighters train and respond as community first responders. Them responding as CFRs isn't necessarily a bad idea, as long as they are happy and confident to do so, but it's a first step on a very worrying path to try to gloss over the fact that the ambulance service and NHS are on their knees.

In the Dublin Fire Brigade all firefighters are trained as paramedics.

In fact there are still diploma courses available for paramedic training - my mistake - although it is moving towards degree-only entry (like midwifery and nursing).

Brennie it doesn't look to me as though they are trained to the same level as our paramedics. The courses are considerably shorter.

Fire FIGHTERS

So, I surmise from this statement that you discuss nothing else! How, um, well, er, focused of you!

It might be a better idea to have a paramedic on board of a fire truck instead. There's no way either profession could train to do both!
I have a lot of respect for all the emergency services, most go above and beyond in the line of duty. All the cuts are extremely worrying.

Potatoface - I suppose it depends where you live. My DH is a FF - he works 48 hours over 8 days which is pretty standard, on a busy station in a poor area. They face hostility on a weekly basis from gangs of teenagers and on occasion infant aged children who will throw burning materials at them as they try to put out the fires that they have started.

Just be grateful that they are there, because they will be the only ones risking their lives if you or your family are every trapped in a burning building. Spare a thought for the kids of FFs who have terrible anxiety and worry if their parents will come home in morning - it's not the big holiday you seem to think it is.