Possibly illegal childcare arrangement

[Radiatorvalves]

My first question is whether this is ok, and second is, if not, what should I do if anything.

So I was talking to an acquaintance who has gone back to work FT after first baby, and asked whether baby was going to nursery. She explained that they had a live in nanny to save money. Nanny gets up on week nights when baby wakes at 3am.

I have had APs for years and know what is and what isn't allowed for APs, but what she described sounded very different.

Nanny is from Romania and isn't qualified but has lots of experience - she is 45. She lives with family but (from what I understood) has child FT (very different from the APs who do 25 hours a week). Nanny is paid less than £100pw and as my acquaintance said, less than NMW. She thought that was ok as she gets board and lodging. Apparently they also pay for insurance.

Just about everything that was said to me worried me and as the conversation continued I got more concerned.

The person knows I have AP experience and that I am a solicitor.... I made it clear that I am no expert, but did ask about tax (she thinks they might be paying some, but not much as it is under threshold - her DH sorted it all) and I also said that I wasn't sure you could justify less than NMW on the basis the person has board.

Can anyone give me chapter and verse as to what is allowed in the following situation...
Having a live in unqualified nanny of 45 yo.
Working at least 40 hours pw, although I suspect more given the comments about getting up in the night.
Presumably you could pay NMW and offset a reasonable amount for board and bed? Is this right?

And any advice as to what I should do? Depending on what you lovely MN people come back with, I intend to tell her exactly what the law says... This sounds like classic exploitation to me.

Thanks!

Using ohpillock's figures she should be paid an extra £130 a week to bring her up to NMW, BUT board and lodgings can be taken out, as long as they are below market rate. Which £130 a week almost certainly is - I can't imagine the nanny would be able to find anywhere to live for £550 a month including all bills and food..... So on that basis the arrangement is perfectly legal isn't it?

Moop - this is about someone who is possibly in domestic slavery, working over 40 hours a week for "well under £100". The person in question doesn't speak any English. I am not intending to get the person thrown onto the streets. I want the employers to realize that they are breaking the law and do the right thing - ie pay her NMW minus the c£5 /day for living costs.

They do not appear to understand their legal obligations - and I have taken steps to inform them of those obligations and of the nanny's rights. I think that is my responsibility.

The standard of behavior we walk by, is the standard of behavior we accept. I am not walking by, I am questioning. I am providing my acquaintance (who is wrapped up with the baby and very probably hasn't given these finer points any thought) with the knowledge to look into what she is doing, and right those wrongs, if indeed wrongs have happened.

Titchy - my understanding is that unless this is genuinely someone who is fully part of the family (socializing together, eating together etc) it is likely that NMW does apply - certainly if she is working 40+ hours, while parents are at work. From the NMW you can deduct c£5/day.

I said this to my acquaintance.

Ah didn't realise the maximum to be taken off was £37 for accommodation.

On a mums Facebook group over the weekend there was a question of what pocket money people gave their APs- who worked 30 hours per week,
Because their food and lodgings is paid for they pay such such small amounts ie- £75-£100

Its definitely a situation where the nanny seems to be taken advantage of.

I don't really understand why you're so determined to look into this. She clearly doesn't care whether she pays minimum wage or not so what does telling her her arrangement is illegal achieve?

I'm so glad Radiator that you haven't just walked by on the other side of the road.

Alice, apart from anything else, would you be happy for your wages to be undercut because other people are prepared to work for less? Because letting this sort of thing happen will mean that other people can't get work in this field unless they accept similar terms.

But what are you going to do (apart from discuss on MN?) nothing. The friend knows what she's doing. She doesn't care. She isn't going to massively increase her childcare bill because a friend told her she should. If she tells you she has she's likely to by lying to get rid of you.

As I nanny I hate the idea, but this is exactly why I would agree with some form of regulation for at-home childcare. Too many people get away with exploiting others, usually young and/or foreign, to care for their children.

I'd quite like to end up with £100 p/w after covering accommodation and basic bills. I don't think this is quite so black and white as you're seeing it OP. Your friend is accommodating the nanny, feeding her, and covering any increase in the bills associated with an extra adult. The nanny will have pretty much no costs / bills. Out of interest, I am going to ask some of my Romanian friends what they think of the set up in question. They all work full time, some on nmw, some above, but they pay their rent / bills / transport. I think the nanny might be in a reasonable position compared to that.

QwertyBird Would you leave your home, family and country to live in someone's home, far away from your friends, to work day and night for a mere 100 pounds a week?

They all work full time, some on nmw, some above, but they pay their rent / bills / transport. I think the nanny might be in a reasonable position compared to that.
Quite possibly, but on they effectively on call 24x7 ? Does she get any overtime? Holiday or sickness pay? Does she have a contract or NI number? Can she access state benefits or healthcare if she is turfed out with no notice? As an "au pair" regardless of age - does she have an open ended flight ticket home paid for by the host family?

Employee rights and protections were designed for a reason. It's quite possible that this woman is perfectly happy with her arrangement but equally so that she is not, feels trapped and is effectively locked into staying without the means to move on.

The big problem is it is unregulated so there is no clear standard against which this can be measured, especially in London where the cost of living is astronomical and the overall cost of childcare in the home cannot be offset by families against their personal tax in any sort of meaningful way.

Someone may have already said this but there is a maximum amount that could be taken out of pay for board and lodging.

www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation/rates

For this year that amount is £37.45.

If she is indeed working 40 hours a week which i doubt then she is entitled to £268 (NMW) minus this accommodation offset which would leave her with £230.55 a week.

However the going rate for a Live in Nanny in London is £350-£400 a week NET which means that she really should be getting *£420-£500 a week (gross). (Outside of London its about £350-£450 gross)

Therefore the MINIMUM she should be receiving is £231 a week

Sorry, someone already beat me to it!
That'll learn me.

"Too many people get away with exploiting others, usually young and/or foreign, to care for their children."

Oh I do so agree with this. I find it absolutely astonishing that parents can have so little regard for the people they entrust with the responsibility of caring for their own offspring.

There are liads of aupairs were I live, many doing childcare full time for £100 or less! a week. I don't get it really.

itsallgoing with pgl the first year is considered an apprenticeship, which is why you get £80pw. If you return you get min wage minus accommodation and food, which, when I was there was a bit over £400 iirc, don't quote me on that though as I didn't do a second season!

Unless the employer is funding a course for the "nanny" in this situation then they can't get away with it, though how pgl got away with our hours I have no clue!

bobo I don't get it either. It really pisses me off. I get people contacting me asking to pay a fiver an hour because that's what a childminder charges, ignoring the fact that the childminder has other children and is based in their own home!

£400pm not pw! that would have been nice ;)

OP, I recommend posting in the Home Childcare topic or moving your post there, as there are some v knowledgeable posters who know the Nanny and au pair employment law in detail.

Yes this does sound immoral if not illegal. Glad you are not ignoring it.

I'm not sure how many hours she is classed as working if getting up overnight- she is effectively on duty all night! I spent 20 mins settling my toddler at 3am last night, I would want to be paid for more than 20 minutes work if I were a Nanny!

Have you seen this article? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-34944682

Granted it's about working women in Asia but this is quite typical in these parts of Asia for both parents to work and go have a live in helper who does practically everything for considerably little money.

Not saying it's right but could you acquaintance be doing this ? If so I think the best thing you can do is try and find out definitively whether this is legal or not in this country.

I knew someone who had this exact arrangement in the uk and I believe there wasn't a proper 'work permit' so she was constantly travelling in and out of the country every 6 months or whatever. This was several years ago though so I'm sure they've tightened things up.

I have another friend who hires a nanny very much like this as well but in London. They are v wealthy though and I believe the nanny is an naturalised resident in this country and has her own home somewhere else. She stays with them during the week.

I have heard people boast about "hiring a Fillipino woman who will sleep above the fridge" as in "haw, haw, haw I'm so funny" and because it's culturally normal in Asia for many people they won't complain.

These are the same people who both earn well into six figures and obsess about getting their children into top London day schools. Mind boggling.

I live in Mexico and I could never understand the common practice of the middle classes here of paying their servants shit, treating them badly and then leaving them to look after the children. Surely if you care about your children, you don't leave them with someone who would have good reason to hate you?

Surely if you care about your children, you don't leave them with someone who would have good reason to hate you?

Precisely.

Or be in any way ambivalent about their care, or to be unsure whether or not their role was valued by you.