About 'International Men's Day'

[ZoeTurtle]

I've just been informed by a colleague that it's International Men's Day. According to their website:

It is an occasion for men to celebrate their achievements and contributions, in particular their contributions to community, family, marriage, and child care while highlighting the discrimination against them.

AIBU to think this is MRA bollocks or is there a big problem of "discrimination against men" that we should be highlighting?

[DamnBamboo]

And what has any of that go to do with whether or not it's reasonable, a good idea even, to have a IMD?

[CultureSucksDownWords]

If you're going to state something as fact it seems reasonable to be able to back it up. I don't see widespread hate for men on the threads I look at. Just look at Active threads for example - not a hint of "man-hate" in any of them. Yet you say this site is full of hate for men, I don't see how that's correct.

Anyway.... Tell me about the discrimination that men face, only because they are men. And who is doing this discrimination, and why men in a position of power/authority aren't doing anything about it.

[HaydeeofMonteCristo]

This thread descended into name-calling and rudeness very quickly.

[DamnBamboo]

RTFT culture
Plenty of information in here!

But just to highlight a few there is a disproportionately lower lever of support for men in terms of healthcare from a social and emotional angle.

And there is outright discrimination against men from from social services, and various aspects of family law.

There a starter (or two) for ten.

Why aren't men in a position of power/authority doing anything about it Good question! Perhaps it's not perceived as being important, or relevant, or necessary or that in various aspect of life, you are man and this is how it is! Just get on with it.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

Plenty of assertions, not much actual information, but thanks for the tip.

I'd like to know more about how IMD will highlight/address discrimination by social services/family courts against men.

[Seeyounearertime]

What I think we are all forgetting, something that I believe needs pointing out.
The only day we need to celebrate, the one day a year that really stands up for a large populous of derided, oppressed and forgotten people.
A people who's only voice is often ridiculed, dismissed as "Jokey" or is otherwise ignored.

Yes, my friends, I'm talking about September 19th. ITLAPD.
Please, please don't let us forget.

Argh.

[HaydeeofMonteCristo]

I'm always a bit wary of the assertion that men are discriminated against by the family courts. It's seems very anecdotal, and everyone's experience is different.

I work with family lawyers (I'm not one myself) and I don't get that impression. I get the impression of courts bending over backwards to be fair to Dads.

From Mn as well I get the impression that it is women and children being failed by the family courts, and quite abusive ex-partners getting contact that in fact should not be happening. However, this is very anecdotal, which puts me back in the position of saying that much of the information available is anecdotal. Who is to say what, in fact, would be fair in the majority of cases?

What is right, however, is that the child's needs should come first, and not any concept of "fairness" between the parents, or the whole thing descending into men v women.

However, that is a small part of this debate on this thread. I'm just not sure if we can "highlight" the problem of men being treated badly by family courts, when it is not certain that there is such a problem.

Things like prostate cancer awareness that affect just men, all good.

Domestic violence and rape awareness that includes men as well as women, great.

Suicide and mental health awareness encompassing both sexes, yes we need this too.

[DamnBamboo]

No assertions culture just facts. If you are keen to understand the issues of lack of support in areas such as mental health, and family law it's not hard to find. I'm not an unpaid researcher for you, a quick google will set you on your way.

What do you mean you want to know how they will highlight/address it? Surely by drawing attention to the fact that it exists and to what extent, is the first step.

Not sure they can directly address it, although lobbying activity in this area would be a start! But if nobody, thinks it's a problem, how does it ever get off the ground.

[Mide7]

"Plenty of assertions, not much actual information, but thanks for the tip.

I'd like to know more about how IMD will highlight/address discrimination by social services/family courts against men."

Culture do you not think theses days raise awareness for certain issues? Even if it gets people talking about things like the fact that men are 33% less likely to see a doctor or the evidence to suggest boys do less well in eduction than girls or the 13 men a day that kill themselves in the U.K only for one day is that not an achievement?

[DamnBamboo]

Indeed, some of the problems are not exclusive to men.
Wider issues, relevant to both sexes can be highlighted in differently framed campaigns.

My own experiences with family courts has been fairly negative (I am a woman BTW) but it's not particularly relevant, or useful to discuss this here.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

I have zero issue with IMD, I'm not sure why anyone would have the idea that I do. I think that a lack of equality for women in our patriarchal society damages everyone, and that men attempting to address some of their own issues is probably a good thing for everyone.

[HaydeeofMonteCristo]

I did read something recently about domestic violence against women by men in fact being a men's issue and not a women's one. Because in fact, in that scenario, it is a man who is committing a crime, and a man who has the problem.

That was very good food for thought.

[Apathyisthenewblah]

Vestal - are you in Germany? If so I can agree that Father's Day is a day for beer there! We spent FD in Germany a while back and DH got offered many beers because he was pushing DDs pram.
That is still no excuse for your sweeping negativity about men though.

[MoriartyIsMyAngel]

I'd like to know more about how IMD will highlight/address discrimination by social services/family courts against men.

Even reading the relationships board on a casual basis, you'd have to think 'what discrimination?' I'm sure there are plenty of stories, but I'm not sure they'd all be truthful - and maybe I'm biased because my ex would be among them. He's never had any interest in seeing his son, but is brilliant at the old plaintive sigh, misty eyes and the 'I never get to see my son' speech. He never gets to see his son because he never picks up the phone to arrange it, and would never agree to a regular routine. He enjoys the perks of being an absent father much more. No responsibilities, and endless sympathy that he's being 'kept' from his boy. He loves him from afar I'm sure (100 miles afar) but won't call him till Christmas, just like last year. His family don't speak to me because he tells them I'm the evil cow who blocks access... His ex girlfriend once walked up to me and said 'I think you should know we're going for custody.' I just roared. I knew he would never dream of going one step further than talking about it.

It's incredibly rare to hear of a man who goes to court and gets nowhere. Even on here you'll hear 'He may have smacked you around, but do you have proof he'd attack the kids? They have a right to that relationship you know, even if they are scared of him.' I've read threads from women terrified out of their minds that their abusive exes will get access to their children, and were right to be because it was granted. And all this perceived 'discrimination' makes the courts tip more and more in favour of the fathers, never mind what's best for the children in the middle of it all.

I do have sympathy for men who are actually blocked from seeing their children - but not if all they do is complain about it. No family court would allow that these days, without good reason.

[CandyCaneCottage]

I think there is a need for International Mens Day, after all there is a difference between the people in power are men, and all men have power privilege. and it works with both genders, there are women who are more powerful and privileged than men. Men in their entirety aren't all powerful and struggle day to day the same as women, it's a select few that truly have power.

I think there is a need for international day because as Drew outlined the aims of the day:

1. To promote positive male role models; not just movie stars and sports men but everyday, working class men who are living decent, honest lives.
   

This is important because most of the role models are these people which is often unattainable, sometimes not good role models, and it's good to hear about men who have achieved perhaps unconventional things throughout their lives, a diversity of different kinds of role models are good, just like it is for Women.

1. To celebrate men's positive contributions to society, community, family, marriage, child care, and to the environment.
   

Again a good thing, especially to many and its been seen on this thread already "just going to get drunk etc" that there is a stigma to how men act and in this society there is a lot of anti male material being published and opinions that make men sound like they get drunk, troublesome, will be rapists/ abusers, cheat, etc. This is obviously not true but still people use that with a stick to often beat men with.

1. To focus on men's health and well being; social, emotional, physical and spiritual.
   

More successful suicides are men, the biggest killer of men before 40 is suicide, i believe men suffer more kinds of mental health issues, i fail to understand how this is a bad thing to be talked about and highlighted.

1. To highlight discrimination against men; in areas of social services, social attitudes and expectations, and law
   

There are places where men are discriminated against, Feminism is meant to be equality and provide better lives for both men and women, but as seen from the indignation on this thread about a day about male suicide, MH issues, male related illnesses and ways men are discriminated, it appears some do not want to help men. Women's lives are getting better, there is no reason why men and women's lives getting better have to be mutually exclusive from one another.

it's telling that many don't think men can be raped, that male rape isn't even known as rape by law when done by a woman, and many seem to think "he had an erection he obviously wanted it, no man would turn down sex etc, forgetting they are physiological responses, sex drive is gender exclusive, its dependent on the person.

Or how about how men who are hebophiles (or most crimes ) tend to get sterner sentences than women.

1. To improve gender relations and promote gender equality.
   

Always a good thing.

1. To create a safer, better world; where people can be safe and grow to reach their full potential..
   

Again always a good thing.

Again it seems strange that a world that says it wants equality, totally neglects a day for half the world to examine how they also have issues that can be remedied. The York University men's day was cancelled because some feminists thought that the idea of a day of discussion about mens issues would put them at risk. The York University Women's Officer responded to the idea of a Male welfare officer by posted an image on Facebook that read: “Carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white man.” The image was liked by 45 people. how can men feel safe going to women who have attitudes like this?

[CandyCaneCottage]

also just to add that even though Feminism says that its for equality for all, it's often said why should women help campaign for men, they should do it themselves, they do it for themselves and theres a total lack of support and why even bother.

Women have issues and often say to men " as a man you can't understand", well the same can be said about men's issues

[MoriartyIsMyAngel]

The York University Women's Officer responded to the idea of a Male welfare officer by posted an image on Facebook that read: “Carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white man.” The image was liked by 45 people. how can men feel safe going to women who have attitudes like this?

Why would men be going to a women's welfare officer? Presumably if a men's officer was appointed, it would be a man.

[CandyCaneCottage]

thats the point there isn't one Moriarty and i believe most of these type positions that are even gender neutral are filled by women, well if those women feel indignation about mens issues then that already seems a bad starting point for the man seeking help.

[CandyCaneCottage]

to given as gender neutral services*

[beefthief]

Vestal - there are many ways that society is damaging to men. Just because it's men at the top of the pyramid doesn't mean that every single man is some homogeneous lump that can influence it.

Male suicide is a real problem, men kill themselves in horrible numbers. When I have felt suicidal in the past, the thought that nobody cares or would miss me is a very real one.

What you're doing in this thread is offering a series of glib, ineffectual "solutions" to a problem that you don't believe exists.

This is one day - which may well be hijacked by MRA nutjobs - where we can honestly talk about some of the problems that society impose on men. Just one day to acknowledge that they don't all have to be "macho", and that it's okay to be sad, to cry, to feel down. That you haven't failed if you're depressed. That people do care, that it can get better, and that you can be fixed.

Saying "hurr durr they just want to get drunkz lol men eh!" makes you sound incredibly callous about something you've clearly not bothered to educate yourself about.

[MistressoftheYoniverse]

I think IMD sounds great...all men were once sons...

[beefthief]

Oops, didn't see there was a whole nother page of discussion. Feel free to ignore me!

[MephistophelesApprentice]

I didn't seek help to escape from my abusive mother, because I thought that only men could abuse women and what I was experiencing must be normal.

I didn't seek help for my suicidal self loathing not because I felt it was inappropriate for a man to feel that way (many men do, in my experience) but because I thought that noone would care.

I only found out that this day existed because I heard of people trying to ban it.

[DamnBamboo]

Why would men be going to a women's welfare officer? Presumably if a men's officer was appointed, it would be a man

That's the point! There isn't one and so this is what is available or not to men.

I have a friend who was raped as a child. He has been to see his GP and was told that there really wasn't much out there in the way of support groups. He was given the details of a group set up for female victims of rape and sexual assault, which is clearly also an underfunded area. He contacted them and understandably, they couldn't/wouldn't help him. He had nowhere to turn!!

[MoriartyIsMyAngel]

also just to add that even though Feminism says that its for equality for all, it's often said why should women help campaign for men, they should do it themselves, they do it for themselves and theres a total lack of support and why even bother.

You may as well ask, why don't civil rights campaigners fight for white rights? Why don't gay rights campaigners fight for straight rights? Because they have more than enough on their plates as it is, with their own causes. I've never said that feminism is about equality for all, it's about women's rights, funnily enough, and the fact that when it comes to child rearing, getting paid the same as men for the same work, getting from point a to b without verbal or physical harassment, sexual attack, domestic violence rates, women are repeatedly dealing with the shitty end of the stick.

Men are not a voiceless minority, they are the voice of the majority (even though they're not actually the majority, last time I checked). Look at every seat of power, politically, and in business. (Little sidenote - my medication doesn't work properly, for the same reason it rarely works properly on women - the vast majority of medicine is all tested on and for men!) What do MRAs want feminists to fight for on their behalf, that they aren't doing perfectly well with themselves?

Usually, "why don't you do stuff for men" is a) a misogynistic joke, and b) a derailment tactic. Oh, and c) the usual entitlement issues. 'Nice' women are supposed to put everyone else first.

For what it's worth I think problems like male suicide and depression are also by-products of this unequal society. Example a young relative of mine is depressed, and was talking about suicide a while ago. The root cause of it turned out to be that he didn't have a girlfriend and was angry about that. He felt entitled to have a girlfriend, and not just any girl, mind you, but one who met his standards. He's doing okay now, and I kept my thoughts to myself of course, but I absolutely think feminism could help him, because seeing young women as trophies instead of human beings was fucking his head up...