To wonder if Jihadi John ever existed?

[Babycham1979]

Just that really. Another convenient bogeyman who was (even more conveniently) 'vapourised' from a distance.

We're constantly manipulated by the powers-that-be, and I can't shake the feeling that this case stinks.

Before you jump on me as a conspiracy theorist, bear in mind the following government-orchestrated events that were used to manipulate public opinion;

• abduction and murder of the Italian premier
  
• bombing of public squares in Italy
  
• hijacking of Cuban airliner and subsequent murders
  
• ongoing collusion, murder and torture throughht the NI 'troubles'
  

Am I alone? Should I be donning a tin-foil hat?

[Talkinpeace]

Very few people believe Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone crazed gunman.
Well actually no.
Those who have read the source documents rather than watched trash TV and trash websites know that LHO was a trained marksman who had been building up to it - politically and militarily - for many years

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

Babycham, I find it really interesting how resistant we all are to accepting that our own intelligence services do really shitty things and lie about them. We're willing to accept that foreign intelligence services do awful things in their own interests, but not ours.

You're right - there are matters of public record to say that these things happen. And people have whistle-blown from MI5 and the like to confirm that "false flag operations" are a totally standard part of intelligence service activity (e.g., see Annie Machon), despite the fact that to whistle-blow must be a gigantic personal and family sacrifice. And yet we cannot get our heads around it, because we are bombarded with mainstream media which ignore or deny it.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

All were countries with internal strife of some kind or another ... All had a recent history of doing awful things to some or all of their citizens without needing outside help or encouragement to do it

You're right of course - but I'm sure the conspiracy theorists won't thank you for bringing common sense into it

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

You know, it would be great to have a thread where use of the words "conspiracy theorist" and "tin foil hat" were banned. It's exactly the same as when die-hard alien enthusiasts call everyone else the "sheeple". It just closes down discussion by conveniently dismissing other people outright.

[MaudGonneMad]

Hmmm. I've had a quick Google, and a skim of the sections of Ganser's book relating to Moro. Although the book doesn't state that the BR didn't murder Moro, rahter suggests that the CIA were the overall orchestrators (based on no documentary evidence, but based on the refusal of the Americans to hand over documents - not a very convincing historical argument, to be frank).

The one or two serious scholarly reviews of the book that I could find point out methodological flaws and an argument based on polemic and wild leaps rather than solid evidence.

Ganser is ask so 9/11 'truther', it seems and his work is enthusiastically pushed by conspiracy sites all over the Internet.

I think I'll stick with Donatella della Porta, thanks.

[Babycham1979]

Puzzled, Libya had the highest standard of lovig. I North Africa (and beyond); the Assads presided over a flourishing economy and secular semi-democracy that protected women's rights and religious minorities, while Iraq had high literacy levels, life expectancy and women's education and employment.

I'm absolutely not standing up for dictators, but they offered a far better way of life for the majority of the population than the alternative. With all their oil wealth, Qatar, Saudi, Bahrain (all or supposed allies) are at least as oppressive and repressive, and have an even worse track record on minority rights. The difference? Their systems pose no threat and no alternative the 'the West'. Oh, and they were largely Russian-allied. Coincidence, much?

[MaudGonneMad]

Space constraints here preclude a full rebuttal of the many allegations contained in the more than 300 pages of Ganser's book. On the pages where he quotes - or misquotes - bits of the motley flood of publications that serve as his sources, he makes no attempt to provide a critical assessment of his source material. Anything that has appeared in print, whether in books, newspapers or interviews with individuals claiming inside information, seems to have been acceptable as evidence.

Ouch. I doubt very much that these claims are 'a matter of public record' if that is intended to imply any kind of legitimacy. They do seem to be the product of a conspiratorial mindset.

[Gottagetmoving]

YANBU to wonder about anything we are fed by Governments, OP.
We are manipulated constantly and lied to. However, you will get labelled conspiracy theorist in a derogatory way.
You should always question motives.

[Babycham1979]

Anothereffing, you're right. I suppose it is difficult to accept that everything you hold to be true and the people you always thought you could trust are turned on their heads. We're constantly fed a diet about the brazen awfulness of Putin's FSB, but what's the difference? Ours get caught slightly less often seems to be he only answer.

The only reason for maintaining these deceits is surely to maintain 'stability' (ie, keep those at the top of society still at the top). Doesn't it really make you think though, that our democracy is all a huge charade? No matter who we elect (if hey even let us, cf Corbyn), the same people will really be making the decisions and pulling the strings. 'Twas ever thus.

Countries like Iceland seem to cope perfectly well without all the international posturing and willy-waving; why can't ours? Is it denial? That we're a moderately wealthy, average-sized island and no longer a world power or centre of empire?

[CerseiHeartsJaime4ever]

In the Cyprus conflict, (conspiracies galore) Rauf Denktas has more than once admitted to planting bombs to increase support for Turkish Cypriots during the conflict. So yes, these things DO happen. But to suggest that IS is a conspiracy doesn't do it or Afghanistan or Iraq justice. They are the result of a by proxy Cold War that has bred contempt for the western world for decades.

[IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou]

Do we really think him being dead resolves the issue? There will be plenty more. If anything there are multiple JJs

Totally agree.

We should kill them all.

[CerseiHeartsJaime4ever]

Why can't ours?

Because of the legacy of the Cold War. We fucked up too many countries to try and beat Russia... We owe those countries aid which is the reason we went to Afghanistan. Our seeds are long sown.

[carabos]

Here are the options:
He does exist
He did exist, and is now dead
He didn't exist
He - " Jihadi John" is an invention, an amalgamation of all the be-headers, a useful propaganda tool, whose "death" is part of a propaganda narrative.

[Babycham1979]

We went to Afghanistan because we owed them aid? Eh?

[Talkinpeace]

babycham
We went to Afghanistan because we owed them aid? Eh?
How much of the history of British and Russian meddling in Afghanistan have you read?

[CerseiHeartsJaime4ever]

We had a duty to clean up our mess. The puppet government we sponsored during the Cold War years later turned in to tyrants, breeding more tyrants who we then had to go back and "resolve" later on.

[IPityThePontipines]

"the Assads presided over a flourishing economy and secular semi-democracy that protected women's rights and religious minorities"

And Mussolini made the trains run on time, so I suppose the Italians should have stuck with him, too.

FFS, the Assad regime tortured and murdered anyone who dared to cross them, engaging in mass slaughter when the felt the "need" arose (google Tadmor massacre, Hama massacre), had the world's youngest prissoner of concience (Tal Al Mallouhi, imprisoned at 17 for writing poetry) and have been waging a campaign of mass slaughter against their own people for the last 5 years.

Why on earth are you defending them?

[Atenco]

How do we know that those seeking to cast doubt here aren't radicals themselves who are seeking like-minded individuals to groom into their cause. Not beyond the realms of reality is it? MN has a million members, surely it stands to reason that some will be IS sympathisers whether they make that commonly known or not

I thought the entire recruitment campaign of ISIS was supposed to be based on attracting Muslims to a muslim cause. The people who casting doubts on who is behind ISIS on this thread are saying that they are not Muslims and their main victims are Muslims.

[Scoobydoo8]

Afghanistan had been in a war situation since the 1970

Surely it's been in a war situation since the 1800s or before prob, can't be bothered googling for this thread as it is so lacking in proper info but the british were fighting the russians over afghanistan in victorian times.

[Scoobydoo8]

Countries like Iceland seem to cope perfectly well without all the international posturing

Population of Iceland 323,000
Population of Brighton 155,000

Maybe Iceland isn't recognised on the world stage as it's errr teeny??

[IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou]

Countries like Iceland seem to cope perfectly well without all the international posturing

Countries like Iceland exist, that's pretty much it. They don't do anything of global significance (so like Brighton in that respect too)...

[SwedishEdith]

Iceland did try to do banking. It didn't end well.

[MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge]

the Assads presided over a flourishing economy and secular semi-democracy that protected women's rights and religious minorities

They come from a small minority Alawite sect, being a branch of Shia Islam that many Sunnis consider to be heretical. They promoted their own people heavily, and oppressed the Sunni. They honestly can't be said to have been a regime that respected religious differences.

[Pipestheghost]

Place marking to rtft when I get home.

[BMW6]

FFS