Is this usual? Scouts

[Pyjamaramadrama]

Ds goes to Cubs, he enjoys it, leaders seem lovely, no problems.

At the weekend there was an event involving the Beavers, Cubs, Scouts.

I thought that perhaps the way one of the Scout leaders was speaking to the children was a bit off. He was looking after the Scouts, so the older ones and he was shouting like a Sergeant major. Shouting "Right, attention", fair enough but then yelling and I mean properly yelling at a couple of the kids "stand up straight boy", "oi, hands out yer pockets boy".

I genuinely don't know if this is odd for scouts. Personally I'm not keen on that approach at all but dh just thought it was normal.

My son had a football coach who was like that and the kids LOVED him!
He would shout orders at them and was really stern but they thought he was brilliant.

It is clear from this link that scouting has its roots in military training adapted for youngsters

My DH is a scout leader. He's not shouty normally, but will be at something like Remembrence parade, although he would use their names rather than calling them 'boy'

One of his helpers is extremely shouty and it just ends up like water off a ducks back and the kids all ignore him. They all know that when DH shouts he means business and it's time to stand up straight/take hands out of pockets

I honestly don't know how he has the patience for it. I helped him one night and I was ready to hit the gin after half an hour

I am also a Beaver leader, and I am not in the least shouty. The 3 other leaders (all men) are also not shouty (although one has quite bad eyesight and can't always tell the kids apart when in uniform, so he is prone to saying 'you' or 'this Beaver' as names are too unreliable).

Tinklewinkle our Beavers is on a Friday evening and I go straight from work. I am usually ready to hit the gin by the time I get home (even though I mostly really enjoy Beavers, sometimes they drive me round the bend).

But, as a leader, I probably would have made a comment to the leader about his use of language.

You'd love me then - I'm a DofE leader & will refer to the participants by whatever seems to either be appropriate for the situation or to grab and maintain their attention. "Oi", "Ladies", "Gents", "Trouble", "Mate", "Gobby", "Noisy", "YOU" etc.

Then again, we have at least 60 new faces every year and there's no way I'm going to remember all of them - ironically it'll be the troublemakers whose names I'll end up knowing....

Hearing the way they talk to their peers I'm not at all worried about "corrupting" the little angels....

I only shout if they're not responding though, normal voice is good enough 99% of the time.

Cub leader for a number of years - I agree that it's down to the individual leader, we have leaders who are or have been in the army and they don't shout (unless an emergency). I'd say it was an 'oldfashioned' way of leadership.

Our Scout leader is ex military and quite shouty. The boys love him. He calls them boy sometimes, because with a troop so popular he has so many lads he can't always quickly recall their names! (The waiting list is so long it has had to be closed)

It's not the approach at my dss' scouts meetings. However, it isn't really a problem if it doesn't bother your ds, is it? They might even find it funny if they think he's a soft touch, really.

Another who's children have been all the way through scouts from Beavers to Explorers. Nothing military or drills-wise ever occurred either but they would be expected to behave for Remembrance Day services. At Scout level, a warning beforehand and the occasional stern look is usually enough. Leaders will all have their own styles though.

Some of the leaders can be quite loud and sometimes have to shout to be heard but it is usually directed at the group as in "Scouts your attention please!" or "Scouts quiet!" Leaders would generally address the children by name if speaking to them individually. There is also the chance that it was all a bit tongue in cheek and that his normal style is very different.

Having said all that, if the Scout troup is full then they must enjoy it so I'd only be concerned if the numbers were dropping as the kids didn't want to go due to the leader's manner.

This thread has been insightful for me. I hate the idea of adults shouting at kids in a military-style 'I'm the authority and you are the subservient' way. Teachers don't shout in the faces of their pupils before they go to assembly (as far as I am aware!) and I am pretty sure it would be inappropriate if they did. There's a difference between raising the volume of your voice in order to be heard, and barking orders imo.

DS1 has a Cubs leader who is a bit shouty. We're a pretty shouty family so he's used to it, but for the more sensitive ones he can be a little too much. However he is without question the leader they all love best, he's fair, fun, kind, considerate and reliable. He doesn't shout at them one-to-one, and I've never heard him be unkind. But at our St George's Day parade this year some of the Scouts and Cubs behaved badly and he gave them a bollocking afterwards. Personally I believe that it's no bad thing.

orange I am sure that shouting in a barking orders type of way is very much not the norm ime.

I am very grateful and appreciative of the time, energy and care directed towards my children from these volunteers. My DSs are now young leaders and therefore trying to give something back to the organization that has given them so many experiences and opportunities. They are currently deciding whether they think they'd like to try for a space to go to Africa or the US in a couple of years time! But also have the choice of Sweden or a UK based international camp for next summer.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

I only saw a snippet so I'm telling myself not to read into it.

As the original purpose of the Scouting movement was to help train boys for military service (so they stood some chance of surviving!), yes, it has military overtones.

How much will depend on the pack, and the leaders, but there is some and it would be in full force at a Remembrance service.

That said, I've been running a youth group for most of 15 years, and, tbh, I've found that teenage boys do react well to a certain amount of 'drill sergeant'. As with toddlers It gives them very clear boundaries, which, when used right, helps them to feel safe and know what's expected. It can't be the only tool, of course, but it is one and it can be useful.

I hate the idea of adults shouting at kids in a military-style 'I'm the authority and you are the subservient' way.

I think you're reading too much into it. Things like Scouts, DofE etc. have to cram in a lot in a short amount of time - with the DofE especially it can be critical that the kids take it on board, the consequences of getting lost, not having the right kit etc can be quite severe.

Sometimes you have to be quite curt and to the point as you've only got a couple of hours a week and you can't afford to stand there saying "Excuse me, could you possibly stop talking and listen to me, please, hello?" whilst "RIGHT! Quiet and Listen - NOW!" will at least shut them up for long enough to allow you to start disseminating information....

Just a thought. Is it possible that the adult wasn't the groups leader, but instead helping out from a different group? It's quite common for services etc, that everyone pitches in. Maybe he referred to the kids as "boy" as he simply didn't know his name. Would it feel different if he said "lad". Somehow in my head it does

Also, I've just thought, our GSL (Group Scout Leader) does this. She is definitely suffering from early alzheimers or dementia We do have a sly backup to oversee her to make sure her duties are being performed, but when she turns up unannounced at meetings, she does like to get involved, as has been known to speak abruptly and call the children "boy" etc.

It's possible Alice, I really don't know I've never come across him before. Yes I think it would have seemed different if he'd said 'lad' or 'young man' I'm not sure why. I wouldn't have expected him to say "can you please take your hands out of your pockets" with a big long explanation just somewhere in between.

I think it comes down to the fact that I don't really know, I don't know him and I don't know the older group the scouts, so many what ifs and all the parents and other leaders were there.

I've no problem at all with adults taking charge, I get that it isn't always possible to be all nice and 'please' and 'would you just'. I take on board that a bunch of kids might walk all over, but there was just something about him.

What age is your DS? is he close to moving up yet? If so, might be worth stalking outside the hall to see if you hear a lot of shouting from inside and whether the kids seem happy when they come out. :)

Ime the worst age group in the Scouting movement is the Cubs not the Scouts. Beavers are young enough to more or less do as they are asked and are quite cute with it. Scouts tend to have started to have a bit of common sense kick in - it's also a big age range with there being 10 and half year olds right up to over 14 year olds so the older ones do tend to have a bit of a (usually) positive influence on the younger ones - they are also usually a bit overawed with the giant 14 year olds :)

Cubs however......nightmare!! :o

There are different scout associations in the UK. BP scouts, TSA, boy scout/girl scout assoc. All have slightly different rules and uniforms.

I belong to the TSA (the scout assoc - Bear Grylls one).

If this WAS church parade for remembrance day the uniformed sections would've been under the command of the GSL (Group scout leader) who over sees all uniformed members (leader included). Our group take this particular parade very seriously (along with ST George's) and the attention, to the right, colour party dismissed thing is part and parcel.

It DOES go back to the military beginnings, but general evenings are much less formal. You will still have a flag break and opening ceremony if you are in TSA. You will renew your promise. This sets the tone that this is beavers / cubs / scouts and not a playdate.

We are not all uniform wearers that don't have a life outside scouting (although I have met a few).

Perhaps you could offer to be a parent helper for one evening and you can see how much light hearted fun the kids get to have. They'd tear your arm off at the offer of help - even to make drinks

Oh ds is only little he won't be moving up for ages.

I'm really keen to volunteer, I know that they're crying out for help. It's a bit difficult as I've got a small baby and dh generally doesn't get in until after they start. I am looking to help out on a trip in the near future.

I think that a small snapshot is not enough to go on. I had a parent once who arrived early for pickup go to the principal horrified because the kids were marching along going 'hup, two, three, four' and when we stopped I said 'Atttteeeennnntion!" and they all snapped to attention. Parent was upset because they thought I was a 'tyrant' (yes, that's the word they used). Principal thought it was hilarious. Some days we're the army, some days we're elite athletes walking in to the stadium at the Olympic games, sometimes we're the Queen waving to her subjects as they walk along and so on. Giving them a role to play is also very effective to keeping them on track because they don't get distracted along the way.

If you had been in the classroom yesterday you'd have heard me calling kids 'Human!', but we were having an outer space day, and I was the alien come down from the Planet Doovalacky to teach them for the day.

Context is everything.

Are you sure it was their actual Scout Leader? Just asking because I am a Guider and at our Remembrance Parade the British Legion chap takes it extremely seriously and tells everyone what to do. I wouldn't be surprised to hear him using this sort of language in that context.

I would be very surprised to hear a Scouter or Guider talking to their unit in that way under any other circumstances; I am also a teacher and make a concerted effort to not talk to the Guides in the way I would if they were at school as they are there by choice and we have a much less formal relationship built on trust and mutual respect.

Dd is a Guide and she took part in the Remembrace parade on Sunday. It was led by a fairly shouty scout leader who had lots of badges so imagine he was high up in the pecking order. He shouted at each group in turn - no names, only you boy/you girl/back row etc - the difference in their posture and attention was incredible! Dd loved it and said she was really proud they all looked so smart and orderly
I wouldn't worry too much - if his group is full then he's doing something right!

Yes he definitely was he was in the uniform and everything and leading their parade.

He did seem quite serious about it all it was all as they were getting ready to go into the service he pointed at a couple of the kids and shouted "stand up straight boy', "oi you hands out yer pockets boy", with a real emphasis on the boy. The kids hopped to it as well.

I gave dh a sideward glance as if to say wtf is he for real? It reminded me of a headteacher from the 1950s or something.

Dh and I were looking afterwards to see that he's the leader of the older group and speaking about it. Dh went through scouts so I was asking him if his leaders were like that, he just shrugged it off as him probably trying to instil discipline.

I do remember a headteacher at my school she was like Mrs Trunchball, in assembly she'd be standing at the front bellowing "straight line now", "face the front" face all screwed up, didn't scar anyone for life though.