To think Sweden's inability to cope with the consequences of its open-door immigration policy was both tragically predictable and a lesson to other countries not to follow suit?

[BackToTheNorth]

As reported in the Guardian (so this can't be dismissed blithely as 'Daily Fail propaganda'):

'Sweden’s army is to help manage the fallout from the country’s refugee crisis, with the civilian administration struggling to cope with an unprecedented surge in arrivals and a top official claiming there is no room left, in the short-term, for migrants reaching Swedish shores.'

'“We don’t have any more space,” the agency’s lead spokesman, Fredrik Bengtsson, said. State-owned accommodation has been full since 2012, he said, and now officials cannot find any more affordable private housing. “For the time being, all of these are finished as well, so for the last three or four nights we’ve had people sleeping in our [non-residential] centres across the country. Right now we’re just looking for people to have a roof over their heads."'

'Sweden is bearing a disproportional burden of the European refugee crisis, due in part to its pledge in 2013 to provide permanent residency to almost any Syrian who reached Swedish soil. Of the roughly 800,000 people to have arrived in Europe by sea this year, at least one in seven have ended up in Sweden, even though the country accounts for just one in 50 EU citizens. So far in 2015, more than 120,000 people have applied for asylum in Sweden.'

'This struggle to provide something as basic as accommodation has led to fears about Sweden’s ability to handle more complex refugee needs, such as education and healthcare. “How will they manage doctors and schools, and how will [refugees] learn Swedish?” asked Enar Bostedt, one of Sweden’s most experienced asylum lawyers. “That’s totally another issue that no one has had time to think about yet.”'

'Some refugees have lost patience with the backlog. “In Sweden the process is so slow, so I’m going back to Iraq,” said Hassanein, a 29-year-old technician, waiting at Stockholm central station, before his attempted homewards journey.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/10/sweden-calls-on-army-to-help-manage-refugee-crisis

AIBU to think that the naive utopianism of open-door advocates will lead to social and economic disaster in Europe, and that Britain's policy of taking 20,000 of the most vulnerable - and no more - is an infinitely-preferable compromise?

Norway and sweden have a good number of rural areas, some quite remote, where inhabitants have to travel a travel some distance to access facilities such as doctors, schools, hospitals and shops.

When all centres fur refugees are
Full, they have to find spaces further out.

Nobody expects anybody to tent in the woods. Surely there are trees and woods in rural Britain too? Would you not find it odd if migrants refused to disembark their coaches and settle in to temporary facilities in Wales, new forest or the Peak District?

In Norway they are now putting up migrants in camp sites (chalets, not tents), and hotels, some remotely in the mountains. Everywhere is full! 4000 has come through the Storskogen crossin on the border of Russia thus autumn, it is a huge amount for a tiny village. More are coming in the fourth. They are doing what
They can! Locals are donating winter clothing, knitting socks, scarves gloves and hats. Lots of people are helping but the problem is housing.

A wise old man said : why is them coming a bigger problem for us than the reason they fled is for them / difficult to translate properly.

Smillas is deliberately misrepresenting the article.

Just as nobody would be scared of the wild beasts roaming the new forest, living there temporarily does not actually mean people being dumped in the woods to fend for themselves, but in in a remote/rural place with nature on the door steps. Not roaming wilderbeasts, bears and wolves!

I don't think anyone's arguing you're lacking in geographical space, but Sweden (and Germany and the UK, for that matter) are severely lacking in housing space. Beds, school places etc. Services, like Smillas pointed out upthread.

Please don't co-opt me in your argument. I was quoting the problems the specific refugees from the article had with where they were being expected to live, not saying anything about the housing/services situation in Sweden.

Nobody expects anybody to tent in the woods. Surely there are trees and woods in rural Britain too? Would you not find it odd if migrants refused to disembark their coaches and settle in to temporary facilities in Wales, new forest or the Peak District?

Hmm yes, there are certainly no differences in temperature or wildlife between UK forests and Swedish forests...

Smillas I was merely pointing out that refugees need services, which is what you said. I wasn't trying to "co-opt" you into anything .

Smillas is deliberately misrepresenting the article.

Just as nobody would be scared of the wild beasts roaming the new forest, living there temporarily does not actually mean people being dumped in the woods to fend for themselves, but in in a remote/rural place with nature on the door steps. Not roaming wilderbeasts, bears and wolves!

I was paraphrasing what a refugee was quoted as saying in the article. Don't start this game with me. People are welcome to look at the article themselves.

I'm fucking sick of the immigration situation in Sweden in particular being (often willfully) misrepresented by people elsewhere to support their anti-immigration or generally xenophobic stance. Let's start talking about the 'rape epidemic' in Sweden while we're at it.

Sweden (and Germany and the UK, for that matter) are severely lacking in housing space. Beds, school places etc. Services, like Smillas pointed out upthread.

Well I said nothing of this ^ kind. I have to say I interpret that statement as strongly implying I did.

You sympathised with refugees who turned down accommodation with a lack of services. I was pointing out that refugees need services and at the moment we aren't accommodating them sufficiently.

In any case, I apologise for agreeing with you

In any case, I apologise for agreeing with you

Your argument was that there wasn't enough housing, services, etc to support incoming asylum seekers. Expressing sympathy for asylum seekers who do not wish to live somewhere with no services is not the same as making an argument that there exists a lack of them elsewhere (or in the UK, for that matter).

You may agree with me, but I don't agree with you, because your argument was not my argument. Though I suspect you're just being disingenuous now.

Smilla Hmm yes, there are certainly no differences in temperature or wildlife between UK forests and Swedish forests...

I think you are being sarcastic. In which case, not being sarcastic, I will point out that there are many towns in the UK which are at a more northerly latitude than many of the Swedish towns most favoured for housing immigrants, with temperatures often well below -15 in places (particularly inland forests).

Again, not being sarcastic, but what on earth do they teach in geography in Swedish schools? I mean, its a great country in many ways, I love Sweden. But history in world wars, ethnic cleansing, genocide of indigenous peoples, immigration problems, tolerance, thinking itself more virtuous and "better" than other countries - not its strong points.

And it needs more people to bolster a low and what would otherwise be rapidly falling population in a way that Britain does not.

I think you are being sarcastic. In which case, not being sarcastic, I will point out that there are many towns in the UK which are at a more northerly latitude than many of the Swedish towns most favoured for housing immigrants, with temperatures often well below -15 in places (particularly inland forests).

We're not talking about 'many of the Swedish towns most favoured for housing immigrants', though, are we? We're talking about one specific Swedish 'town', and that is Lima. The latitude-equivalent towns in the UK are located in the Shetland Islands. The comparison presented was forests in Wales, the New Forest and the Peak District. Plus you're ignoring the wildlife issue.

Again, not being sarcastic, but what on earth do they teach in geography in Swedish schools? I mean, its a great country in many ways, I love Sweden. But history in world wars, ethnic cleansing, genocide of indigenous peoples, immigration problems, tolerance, thinking itself more virtuous and "better" than other countries - not its strong points.

Ah, I see you're trying to offend me here. The problem is that I'm not Swedish, and nor are my arguments based on some kind of deep-seated fondness for Sweden.

Where do you come from, incidentally? The first paragraph I quoted of yours is utterly off the mark and you would have known that had you actually followed the discussion. Do they teach reading comprehension where you come from?

(See how fun it is to make puerile ad homs? Except I'm actually criticising a demonstrated flaw, rather than criticising others on the basis of my own inability to read.)

That Norwegian article Quints linked to includes a video in Swedish where they say (I think - my Swedish is not fluent!) that the new location is a holiday camp for Swedes but is not used in the winter. So it's not a city but not exactly the wilds of the Arctic either. It says that the school is a 20 minute walk away but the refugees say that this is too far so they want to go back to Uppsala.

I can see why they would be apprehensive ending up in the countryside when they are from a densely populated much warmer country but if they're desperately fleeing war then surely they would just be happy to be safe? They can hardly expect to get high end accommodation in the heart of Stockholm or Gothenburg. Even Swedes struggle to find good quality housing in the main cities.

I think this refugee crisis has been made worse by misplaced expectations on both sides. There seems to be an expectation from refugees that Germany and Sweden are the land of opportunity, a chance for them to get good jobs and build a better future. Germany and Sweden on the other hand think their role is to just provide some humanitarian relief to ease the awful crisis. It's a huge mismatch on both sides and can only lead to trouble long term as refugees slowly realize that that jobs are hard to come by and housing is expensive in these countries.

I don't know about Sweden but Germany is not lacking in housing space at all. In fact it has been knocking down thousands of apartment buildings because the birthrates have collapsed to such an extent over an extended period of time that there are no tenants/buyers for those apartments.

I don't know about Sweden either in this particular regard, but I seriously doubt Germany thinks its role is

to just provide some humanitarian relief to ease the awful crisis.

Germany has a long history of importing foreign labour and realised that such labour doesn't just clear off again when you no longer particularly need it a long time ago. Germany will know these people are here to stay, and will be aiming to turn them into a productive (and permanent) workforce ASAP, I should think.

Nice selective quoting from the article there OP.

Hassanein continued:

“My family is waiting for me there, and it isn’t safe for them to wait there for so long without me.” Hassanein said he was scared to return, holding up a disfigured hand that he claims was the result of an attack by Islamic State. “But I’m just going back to gather my family, and bring them to Sweden again, so we can all wait here together.”

One of my neighbour's dogs was killed by a pack of wolves when he was out walking it. I wonder how often that happens in the new forest.

Smilla Ah, I see you're trying to offend me here. The problem is that I'm not Swedish, and nor are my arguments based on some kind of deep-seated fondness for Sweden.

You do however live there and follow the tiresome "Sweden is wonderful" line. And strangely cannot envisage Scotland or even Yorkshire as being part of the UK.

Where do you come from, incidentally? The first paragraph I quoted of yours is utterly off the mark and you would have known that had you actually followed the discussion. Do they teach reading comprehension where you come from?

Wow, that's rude. "Where do you come from?" is one of those typically racist statements, designed to make the subject remember their place, and I have to say its not one I get in Britain. I'm mixed race, British nationality and I'm not prepared to say exactly what my ethnic background is on here. However, it is one which gives me direct knowledge of the Saami situation in Sweden. So I'm surprised to hear I'm "off the mark". From the comments on here, its obvious that these ever-so right on Swedes are the ones totally off the scale altogether when even failing to consider the existence of the Saami and the continuing blatant racism against them in Sweden.

I've also lived in a number of different countries, and FWIW found The Netherlands to be just about the most racist. That's not to say the Dutch are racist people, and purely my impression. Britain does seem to me seems much less racist than many countries though. I've lived in Germany too, and like The Netherlands, away from party politics and tv speeches, there is a fair bit of resentment of so many immigrants living in towns and villages.

(See how fun it is to make puerile ad homs? Except I'm actually criticising a demonstrated flaw, rather than criticising others on the basis of my own inability to read.)

Talk about "puerile ad homs" or "demonstrated flaws" all you like, but please get an atlas with lines of latitude on it. Heavily populated parts of Scotland are on the same latitude as the southern 1/3 Sweden, and they certainly are not particularly inviting of temperature in the winter.

The suggestion has been made plenty of times on here that Sweden has plenty of space, however much of that space lies in the sub-Arctic region, and even Lima is pretty remote (I've spent time in Mora and Orsa and can't even remember Lima). Honestly, I would struggle if I was suddenly transported to a large village in the middle of a northern forest. And there are plenty of immigrants in more northerly Swedish towns than Lima already. Have you never been to the far north? Who do you think does all the dirty cleaning type jobs that Swedes don't want? I think if I was a refugee, I'd be questioning whether I'd have been happier staying in Turkey than dumped in this strange land. Maybe the same if I was in some soulless housing estate/ghetto on the outskirts of Orebo or wherever where there was so much frustration caused by long term unemployment that it wasn't particularly safe. Maybe Sweden needs to develop better methods to integrate and make feel welcome its ever growing immigrant population?

Scremersford, on a totally different topic, have you seen this? www2.runforyourlife.nu/en/

Quint I've watched that waiting for a bear or a wolf to jump out!

He does look like he's making steady progress though.

There should be packs of bears!

I did not realize that there was such problems with racism for the sami in Sweden. Could explain my sami friends living in Swedens emphasis of their culture and heritage. It seems they are battling a bit for their rights, and education of their kids in native tongue, etc.
Friends of Finish origin has told me it was not easy growing up as a Finn in Sweden.

That aside, I have sami and kven blood.

I had a boy in tears yesterday here in Germany in school. 12 years old. His phone rang and there was the usual "No phones" outcry from his classmates.

I took him out, he'd just had a call telling him his mum and sister had made the journey from Syria and are now here and safe. He speaks more English than German atm and was worried he'd be in trouble for the "no phones".

Then he just cried.

Quint I did not realize that there was such problems with racism for the sami in Sweden. Could explain my sami friends living in Swedens emphasis of their culture and heritage. It seems they are battling a bit for their rights, and education of their kids in native tongue, etc.
Friends of Finish origin has told me it was not easy growing up as a Finn in Sweden.

It went on well into the 1980s and probably does so still because most Swedes have littel or not interest in them. Sweden and Norway effectively practised genocide on the Saami, even until recently it was illegal in Sweden to purchase land if you had a Saami surname (so they had to change to Swedish names or not bother) and school education in Saami languages was illegal. I mentioned Pitea upthread for very good reason, as it used to be one of the main areas for Saami settlement until slave mines were introduced and people fled the area. Even until recently, the lower reaches of the Pitea river were the main winter grazing ground for the remaining Saami in the area, until the massive water project ruined it.

Sweden has in recent years been heavily criticised by the UN for racial discrimination of the Saami, which remains ongoing, not least in part due to its refusal to ratify the UN Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention 1989.

I'm not saying Sweden is a bad country, as I said above I actually am a big fan of Sweden. I am uncomfortable with people coming on and making critical comments about another country (the UK) and ignoring Sweden's own record, or presenting Sweden as some kind of saintly state in its treatment of racial minorities. Its not just the Saami the Swedish state has oppressed, its also the Danish minority in Skane, the Finnish minority...

That aside, I have sami and kven blood.

Scremersford, I think you are right, I do not have much constructive comments to add to the debate, it is for me, a very emotive one. So will leave it at that but just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about treatment of racial minorities.

The impression I get about Germany and Sweden is that Germany is inviting migrants to come because Germany needs more people - more workers - to keep their country going. Sweden, OTOH, seems to be doing it more from a moral standpoint and I'm not sure that they've thought through the long-term implications of taking in so many people so quickly who come from cultures very different to their own. Having seen the impact that large numbers of people from Muslim countries have had in the France I actually think they're being rather naive.

I agree with the poster above who said that there is a disconnect between what countries are expecting to give to these migrants, and what those migrants are expecting to receive. And that is where the big problems will crop up.

Germany needs people in the long term, to offset its low birth rate, but it doesn't need them all at once. For all the widespread cynicism about Merkel's policies I think there is little doubt that she thinks that Germany's response to the refugee crisis should be driven by moral issues not primarily by economics.

Regarding space for refugees. Europe has plenty of it. The problem is that the places where there are space and spare housing may not be where refugees ideally want to live. In the French town that I live in, probably one in three town centre residential properties are empty (that's a conservative estimate). There is even spare housing in the UK - in my dh's home town, Stoke on Trent, the council was famously selling off houses for £1 not so long ago, and there is potentially plenty of space in blighted former industrial areas of the North east. The problem is that where there is housing, there are no jobs and relatively few facilities...

It seems clear though that Angela Merkel thought that if Germany led the way by welcoming migrants she could then put pressure on the rest of the EU to take their share. I don't honestly think she expected Germany to keep them all. What she appears to have miscalculated is that a) most other EU member states neither want nor need more people and their populations are against her plan, and b) the migrants themselves don't want to go to Romania or Croatia or Ireland - they want to stay in Germany.

And you're right mistigri about the housing/jobs mismatch and Germany is now starting to come up against this too. They have lots of land and half-empty towns in the former E. Germany. But there are no jobs. The people who left those towns to move west did so because there were no opportunities in those towns. And now with hundreds of thousands of migrants to accommodate they're being placed in those very same towns where there are no jobs ... but with so many to accommodate at such short notice they have to be put where the housing is ...