Would I be U not to pay this?

[blondieblonde]

We have a local very posh playgroup. I have sporadically inquired as to whether they have spare places and they always have said they were full until this September, when they emailed at last-minute notice saying did I want my DD (who is 3) to start. I accepted a few mornings per week and then heard nothing. Just before her start date we got an email, and I took her along on her first day. It was terrible -- her key worker was awful and it was just a really bad place. I stayed that first morning, and took her back the next day and also stayed. That second lunch time we decided it wasn't going to work and I emailed them to say so. We had, by this point, already paid them £150 of registration/deposit.

Now they have emailed us saying we have to pay for two terms worth of fees, which adds up to over £600. This was only ever a few mornings per week place and in mid-September I told them it wasn't going to work for us. How can they expect us to pay up until December?! Especially if they say they are always very oversubscribed, why don't they just give the place to someone else? Also it doesn't account for the fact that it should be free, given DD is 3, and they are charging us what it would cost to have put a 2 year old in, IYSWIM.

I feel very aggrieved by the threatening emails the playgroup is sending and do not want to pay. We had waited till DD was 3 so it would be free to have under 15 hours.

Yes, this was during the settling in period. We only went for 2 settling in periods that's it.

Blondie, that sounds awful.

I would put those concerns in writing to them and advise them that you are sending a copy to Ofsted.

Well, if you won it would cost you nothing and have no effect on your credit rating. If you lost it would cost you £600 plus the fees.

But if you a) never saw the terms & conditions, and can prove that, and b) didn't sign a contract, I think they would be in a hard position to defend. You acted in the best interests of your child, you saw some things you were very unhappy about, and most childcare businesses are very keen to avoid local parents passing on bad word-of-mouth. I would argue to them that the £150 was payment enough for 2 sessions and that you would hate this to become a situation where mutual goodwill evaporates, and that you're willing to accept that the nursery was just having a bad few days and wouldn't be suitable for your child. But that if they're determined to push the matter, you have some views on their services that Ofsted might be interested in...

I certainly wouldn't pay the £600. I also wouldn't have expected to pay the £150 registration fee until after at least one visit/settling in session.

Not every nursery is the right setting for every child. IME (3 DCs) we always had a visit to the nursery, a tour & at least one settling in session before committing fully to a place.

Like you say, if they are so oversubscribed, surely they'll go to the next on the waiting list & charge them the £750 too!

Is that not the point of the deposit / registration fee?

Bit of a sickener to lose £150 but surely that should be the end of it.

Especially if your little one never actually started properly.

I could understand for example if the child started 1st October, you decided 14th it's not for you, you lose deposit / registration fee & have to cough up for all of October but anything more than that is robbery!

What NoSquirrels said.

If you are applying for the 15 hours they have to be free at the point of delivery, no deposit is allowed if the child is just utilising the free hours. Might be worth getting your local council involved, we had an issue with charging and got ours involved. In our council it was the families information service, we found them very helpful.

Solicitor here. Trust me, it would be more trouble than it's worth for then to take you to court especially as they will struggle to prove what comprised the contract. Contracts don't have to be in writing as many think. But if they hadn't made clear that by coming to two (or even one) session you'd be liable for four terms fees, they'd have no chance. You lost your deposit while attending a couple of trial sessions - seems logical this was the original contract. You decided not to proceed to the next stage of contract. I'd be astonished if they succeeded in claiming more (unless you signed your life away OP! And even then it would be more hassle to them than it's worth to pursue it.)

Many years ago, DD1 attended a local "posh" nursery (first day I arrived for pick up, one of the Mummies said to me "Nannies stand on that side of the door, this side is for Mummie.). She was ill, we were moving overseas, so she was off for the last two-three weeks. The nursery assumed she wasn't coming back, so filled her space. The day I turned up with her for her last couple of days (having left a voicemail message to tell them) "to say goodbye to her friends", the nursery owner's face was a picture, as they were over their numbers. They then said, very shamefaced, that they had filled her place, and could I take her home again. I pointed out that I had paid for her place, had given notice as of x date, and that we weren't there yet. They could either take DD1 for her last few sessions, or refund me for the whole time they had filled her place. They took her back!

I would refuse to pay and threaten to go to Ofsted, local authority, papers etc!

OP you describe the nursery's request for payment as "threatening". What are they actually saying? If they sent you an automated bill then maybe the accounts department just need to know you didn't take up the place.
You could write a letter explaining that you came for the 15 free hours, no conditions were specified to you, you attended for the settling in, detail the hot coffee / screaming key worker, you did not take up the place and so do not owe any money.
This is so annoying for you. Sorry OP

When did they start hassling you for the £600?
They sound very disorganised if you had taster sessions in September & only now 2 months later they are pestering you for the £600.

They sure don't sound organised enough to chase you thru Small Claims court (lotta paperwork).

They should have handed you a sheef of papers outlining the supposed contract. Verbal contacts are not as precise for obvious reasons.

Its not a play group but a Nursery.

In my Nursery you need to give a month notice of any changes or that you are with drawing your child. Can you check the paper work you signed and forward the email you sent after the second day. In this circumstances I would expect to pay a month but no more.

Personally I would write back in a very formal manner, being clear that as far as your concerned that no contract existed and nothing has been seen in writing or verbally concerning notice periods and penalties and as you have had no dealings with this (or any other nursery if that is the case) it is unreasonable to expect you to understand this with no prior knowledge. Also that as you left within a settling in period that no longer term agreement had been made. I would also be extremely explicit (and objective) about what my issues with the nursery were and explain that if push comes to shove you would be happy to elucidate on these to any judge and ensure the local rag had comments from yourselves on the proceedings.

They are seriously trying it on and it sounds like they have had several people do this to them. And as you say with a waiting list etc there is no financial loss to them so no grounds for any sort of compensation

Did you not go and see the setting before you accepted the place? Did you just assume posh=good?

I do think it's your responsibility to check out things before you pay any money.

However, if it's as bad as you say, write formally, outline the reasons you won't be staying. Try the "not fit for purpose" argument- the childcare provided isn't an acceptable standard. Copy in ofsted

In some posh nurseries the £150 isnt a deposit as such ie to be refunded or offset against sessions - its a non refundable registration fee for putting your name on the waiting list.

Similarly as they are oversubscribed, when they do give a place they ask them to sign up for the year as they know other parents who didnt get places will have put their children somewhere else by then and be reluctant to move them mid year. There will probably be a notice period of a full term.

Be very careful what you signed before spouting off to ofsted or threatening legal action.

Be very careful what you signed before spouting off to ofsted or threatening legal action

I suggested ofsted not because of the money/contract issue, but because of the childcare itself. If it's as awful as the o/p is saying, and "a really bad place" Ofsted need to know and intervene to bring standards up.

I agree if its that bad Ofsted do need to know, but thats a separate issue and shouldnt be used as a threat or a plea-bargain.

I wasn't suggesting that the OP should threaten legal action. I was suggesting that if the nursery wanted to take her to small claims (i.e. if THEY wanted to threaten legal action) to let them. Only if she absolutely did not get any paperwork, of course. And as she withdrew her child because of genuine concerns over the care, I don;t think there's any harm in mentioning that to them in a letter/email.

I've been on the committee in a similar sounding playgroup (nursery).

Basically posh doesn't mean rich. It's very hard to make ends meet in a community based playgroup based on funding of £9 per child per 3 hour session or whatever it is. While their spaces may have been full it is often hard to fill a space at this late stage in term 1 / 2 as most people have generally made alternative arrangements by now if not offered a space to start in September. This means that they have lost their funding (if child is council funded) or fees for one child, which is not insignificant when trying to cover overheads, i.e. building costs and staff on a very tight margin. Therefore this was also the arrangement where I was on the committee - and for that reason - i.e. if you need to leave before the school starting age you need to give 2 terms notice.

We had people who didn't turn up to start - not so bad as you could then fill a space - or pulled out after a couple of weeks. We had to ask for the 2 terms fees (i.e. 2 half terms) in order to be able to cover our costs. Obviously if we were able to fill the space we didn't insist on having the fees but reserved the right to do so. This was all written clearly in a document that was given to parents at the point of joining the waiting list and paying the registration fee. To be honest while I was on the committee I seem to remember the registration fee being under question (and we charged nothing like as much as £150) - whether or not that is legal I'm not sure - but I am going back quite a number of years now!

don't pay it, they probably won't chase it, if they do then maybe pay it before the take it to court.

Its not two terms though is it, if you're expected to pay up until December, that's only one term.

Our preschool also has the same terms and conditions, if people pull out with no notice we have to cover costs somehow and its unlikely that they will be able to fill the place straight away as other children would have to give one term's notice at their current setting.

However, if you haven't signed anything, then you can quite reasonably argue that you were not aware of the need to give/pay for a term's notice before you started. I think they'd be hard pushed to take you to court without you having signed anything.

Agh - it turns out we did tick something that said 'I understand I will have to give a term's notice if we withdraw our child or change their hours' when we went for the first of our two short sessions. I wish we hadn't!! Now I suppose I have to pay.

But.your dc is not going because they failed to provide a safe and welcoming environment

I would advise theme that if they confirmed to demand the funds you will need happy to counter sue. for their breach of contract

Interesting auto corrects there