To think Justine Roberts should not have written this in the FT

[FreeWorker]

Justine writes a comment column in the Recruitment section of the Financial Times section which most MNetters will not have seen as it is behind a paywall.

In her most recent article of yesterday she writes on the gender pay gap and I was astonished to read the following sentences:

"As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women."

"The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

One commentator under the FT article called Ezra sums up how I feel.

"Some valid observations - but to say that the gender pay gap has nothing to do with discrimination is frankly delusional."

For those who want to see the full article you may be able to read it via the following link if you search for it via Google and answer a few online questions:

For the rest of the year your pay will be zero

The Financial Times is an extremely influential newspaper in business and Government circles and Justine is also extremely influential as an opinion former because of MN.

AIBU to think that the views Justine has expressed in this article do not reflect the daily experience of women at work? AIBU to think it also contradicts the thousands of posts about unfair treatment at work by women on MN that show discrimination is rampant and that women DO care about salary and promotion?

I have name changed for this post but am a long time male poster on MN and have had male bosses throughout my career who openly and routinely made discriminatory comments in meetings when no women were around to hear them. They knowingly paid women less and passed them over for promotion. I worked in an industry where virtually no women make it to senior positions.

The gender pay gap is always about discrimination in my experience.

Agree with Justine. Traditionally women just have not cared as much as men do about salaries and promotion because we've been raised to have a different set of priorities. But that is changing.

Agree with Movingonup

Also, as well as these reasons, it's that women so often have to carry the can bevcause men won't. Society approves of men having FT jobs that involve barely seeing their children, or deciding they're bored of family life and just fecking off with a younger model, or not doing their share of housework "because they work" even when the woman also works. Men just move out and opt out, leaving women with childcare and running a home. Men just sit on their arses playing computer games or looking at porn, leaving women with childcare and running a home. Men indulge their hobbies at weekends, leaving women with childcare and running a home.

No not all men! But enough that they populate these boards all the time. Women doing these things would get a heap more approbation poured on them, so it's normal for women to feel they have to carry the can re home and kids.

Equal paid parental leave has the side effect of discriminating against women who want to breastfeed. I disagree that it does. You can remain on maternity leave and breastfeed if you want and giving women the option not to does not take away your right to choose that.

It comes down to personal choice. If you want to stay off longer and breastfeed fine. But if you don't your partner can stay at home while you go back to work and get the same money. If you don't offer equal pay after the birth of a baby there is NO choice and that's wrong.

I think the discussion of different motivations and expectations is all very interesting. But is entirely beside the point of the crashing elephant in the article of 'As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women.'

The only possible explanation is that you have not looked very far - as far even as Mumsnet discussion boards. In which case, don't speculate, admit you don't know!

'I don't know to what extent the gender pay gap has to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women but I am aware of other issues that may be contributing' would be fine for the discussion you wish to have.

The statement you did make derails that discussion. Unfortunately raeders will imagine you have looked further than your own personal experience. Why would a thoughtful woman make such a throwaway remark, in ignorance, about such a serious subject?

If you have evidence that discriminatory practices or policies against women are not a cause of the gender paygap, let's see it.

Also, as well as these reasons, it's that women so often have to carry the can bevcause men won't.

Totally. As a society we should be raising our boys to take on equal responsibility for themselves and their home and family life and raising our girls to accept and expect nothing less than that.

"Children don't ruin women's careers - husbands do, Harvard study finds."

So true Annie.

You could argue that what women lose in pay and seniority they gain in work-life balance, and that is a fair trade. Many fathers no doubt regret the paltry amount of time they spend with their children and would perhaps willingly take a pay cut to increase it.

Fuck you.

As some who has never wanted children, who is willing to have their phone on overnight, work unsocial hours and prioritise my career and who has even negotiated in increase in grade working in the NHS (unheard of) why am I earning less than men?

I don't give a shit about work life balance, but I'm treated as though I do.

Even new graduates where women usually have better degrees, A Levels and GCSEs men are paid more.

As for 'the type of work women do' - yes lets look at that and how society treats traditional 'women's work' why are we as a society prepared to pay so much more for someone to fix the heating than to look after a child?

The reason women want a work life balance is because they have so much more to do! My sister is a consultant and her partner earns much less and works part time. She's still the one meal planning and organising stuff for the kids.

People really need to take on board that there is still a lot of work to be done in running a home especially if it has children in it and at the moment its done by women! Men don't think about it.

The days I work when I work like a 'man' as in leave before the kids are up and get in when they're in bed house already straightened out and DH in the kitchen cooking dinner actually feel relatively easy days.

I refused to share maternity leave because I knew while the baby would be cared for that would be it, the house would still need cleaning, shopping still need to be done etc. Lots of jobs that I do like school admin, sorting out bills, etc would still have fallen to me.

I agree with Justine on the first point, it's rarely blatant policies that discrimate, it's more subtle than that.

Disagree on the second point though.

Yes AyeAmarok, more subtle practices. She said neither policies nor practices. Sounds like you don't agree with that.

I agree with Justine on the first point, it's rarely blatant policies that discrimate, it's more subtle than that. Like ummm, practices you mean?

No-one is saying that policies discriminate. Often they do they opposite, which appears to only increase the 'subtle' methods by which women are kept on lower pay and in lower status positions.

Justine I'm extremely disappointed to hear you perpetuating the myth that work/life balance being achieved means lower pay, or rather than remaining in a lower paid job allows for a better work/life balance.
In my experience and that of many friends, the better you earn the more autonomy you have to chose your hours, work location, to pay for domestic support services, and good flexible childcare. The people I know who have the worst work/life balance are those who are in low paid jobs with no autonomy, no flexibility and no spare cash to outsource anything.

(And on the original OP: I understand that the OP may be doing this with good intent, but when all is said and done he's just a bloke coming on a majority-women board to tell the woman who runs this board to shut up. This I am not keen on.)

Agree with you ArcheryAnnie especially this ^

On the "refusing to acknowledge that women have a slightly different set of priorities/ head in sand" point from Justine, I don't really see people saying that, it's just that there are valid reasons for those slightly different priorities.
The world of work still acts like being a woman, especially someone with outside responsibilities, is a very alternative thing to be. It doesn't fit their system. It suits them that way. Young women can fit themselves into that model to a large degree before they have children.

"As a society we should be raising our boys to take on equal responsibility for themselves and their home and family life and raising our girls to accept and expect nothing less than that"

This. And yet we see the opposite so often on MN. For example - a thread the other day where the father had never taken his 3 year old daughter out on his own. And this had been completely accepted by the mother.

So often on here we see men acting as though the responsibility of children and home are automatically the women's responsibility. Their motivations are clear. What isn't so clear to me, is why the women accept this. I'm fed up of seeing bloody awful behaviour totally unchallenged and the bar of womens' expectations from men permanently set to low.

Well.
In the words of Jamie from the thick of it
What a "mimsy bastard quisling fuck"

Expectations of men, sorry

I understand that the OP may be doing this with good intent, but when all is said and done he's just a bloke coming on a majority-women board to tell the woman who runs this board to shut up. This I am not keen on.

Except that he isn't. He's pointing out the flaw in her argument which many people on here agree with. I think disagreeing with others is fine and their sex is irrelevant.

Again though if women do this Purple (set the bar of expectation too low for men's behaviour in the home including taking a fairer share of caring responsibilities) they (we) probably have their reasons for this.

I think my problem with the article and much of the subsequent discussion is I trust women more that there are good reasons for their current set of behaviours within the current systems they find themselves in. I don't think it's helpful to blame women's behaviour for the situation of unequal pay and conditions in work - without looking more at underlying reasons for it.

The thing that worries me Justine is that you are asuccessful woman and as such your words need even more careful consideration than mine. Some mysogenist employer will read your words and take them as justification why he can pay women less. I know that's not what you meant but it's what may be construed.

Many years ago I worked in the Civil Service my line manager asked why I didn't just resign as my husband earned enough to keep me, this was in an official disciplinary hearing as I was long term sick at that time. I don't think he'd have said that to a male colleague. I don't think we've moved on that far.