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To think Justine Roberts should not have written this in the FT

11 replies

FreeWorker · 06/11/2015 09:38

Justine writes a comment column in the Recruitment section of the Financial Times section which most MNetters will not have seen as it is behind a paywall.

In her most recent article of yesterday she writes on the gender pay gap and I was astonished to read the following sentences:

"As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women."

"The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

One commentator under the FT article called Ezra sums up how I feel.

"Some valid observations - but to say that the gender pay gap has nothing to do with discrimination is frankly delusional."

For those who want to see the full article you may be able to read it via the following link if you search for it via Google and answer a few online questions:

For the rest of the year your pay will be zero

The Financial Times is an extremely influential newspaper in business and Government circles and Justine is also extremely influential as an opinion former because of MN.

AIBU to think that the views Justine has expressed in this article do not reflect the daily experience of women at work? AIBU to think it also contradicts the thousands of posts about unfair treatment at work by women on MN that show discrimination is rampant and that women DO care about salary and promotion?

I have name changed for this post but am a long time male poster on MN and have had male bosses throughout my career who openly and routinely made discriminatory comments in meetings when no women were around to hear them. They knowingly paid women less and passed them over for promotion. I worked in an industry where virtually no women make it to senior positions.

The gender pay gap is always about discrimination in my experience.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 10:39

Morning, here's the entire piece I wrote for FT which gives my comments a bit more context...

Each year at this time, we pass what has come to be known as Equal Pay Day: the point beyond which, thanks to the UK’s gender pay gap, women effectively work for free until January.

The actual date changes from year to year. While in 2013 it fell on November 7, in 2014 it came three days earlier, courtesy of the fact that the pay gap last year widened. This year, it is November 9, making us a bit better off; not that we need feel grateful.

Let us look at the numbers, courtesy of the Office for National Statistics. Its preferred measure of the pay gap uses hourly earnings excluding overtime, resulting in a wage gap of 9.4 per cent. The gap in favour of men is wider in the top decile of earners (18.3 per cent) than in the lowest decile (5.9 per cent).

The one area where women out-earn men is in part-time work, where the pay gap is negative (5.5 per cent in favour of women). This probably reflects the fact that older, more experienced and better-paid women tend to reduce their working hours in order to cope with caring responsibilities.

We all love a bit of righteous outrage, and on this topic there is plenty to go around. The problem is where to direct it. Very few of us work for companies that expressly seek to keep women down or out. Pretty much every job I have had since graduation has been in a male-dominated field (trading floors, investment banks, sports journalism, internet start-ups) but in my experience, these sectors are keen to hire more women at all levels.

Breaking into sports writing was undoubtedly easier because I was an “unusual” applicant. Via Mumsnet’s Family Friendly programme, meanwhile, I see businesses trying all sorts to support and retain senior female workers. Barclays, for example, has instituted policies to help their employees throughout family life, from support during fertility treatment to maternity and paternity leave, or while caring for relatives. At Facebook they are offering up to $20,000, about £13,000, for egg freezing treatment.

Businesses know it looks terrible if their employment ratio is skewed wildly in favour of men, or if the only woman in the senior leadership meeting is there to take notes. Most organisations are increasingly aware that diversity makes good business sense, too. If you are aiming to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, you will need to employ more than just white, middle-aged men. However talented they may be, they will struggle — just as any demographically uniform group would.

As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women. There are much deeper forces at work, among which are the conflicting signals women receive about how best to conduct themselves. The behaviours for which men are rewarded in the office (laser-like focus on their own projects; a willingness to tell co-workers what to do without apologising) are often frowned on in women. But failure to display them means women often miss out on promotions and higher pay. Unfortunately that is not the half of it. The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion.

The 2015 Global Management Education Graduate Survey found that things such as professional development, a good fit with the company culture and flexible work hours matter more. At its starkest it can be summed up as men want to get on, women want work-life balance. No surprises, then, who gets the pay rise.

You could argue that what women lose in pay and seniority they gain in work-life balance, and that is a fair trade. Many fathers no doubt regret the paltry amount of time they spend with their children and would perhaps willingly take a pay cut to increase it.

Whichever way you look at it, one thing is clear. The model of the ideal senior employee that we have collectively manufactured (available at all hours, smartphone under the pillow, last attended a parents’ evening some time before the millennium) produces unfairness on both sides and a certain amount of misery for all. So, now we are working for no pay for the rest of the year, let us from today think about dismantling a model of work whose dysfunction is increasingly apparent.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 10:55

@Preminstreltension

tbh Justine, I don't think this was a helpful sentence:

The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion

You go on to cite a study that says they care about things like flexible hours. They care about those things because often they have no choice. Men don't need to care about those things because someone else is doing that for them. Yes women need to manage their lives and responsibilities first (while we wait for men to take on their share of responsibilities) but that's a million miles from saying women don't care as much about salaries.

Women are taking what they can get in terms of salaries but the fact is that men still reward people who look like them and women have to get along in this working world so they fight the battles they need to fight first.

Well I do see where you're coming from, and I thought long and hard about it, but I think it's essential to have honest discussion, if we're ever to change things. Insisting women's motivations are exactly the same as mens' when the evidence suggests otherwise is not helpful IMHO.

I don't really think any much changes unless and until men (obviously I'm generalising - as lots do) take on more of the caring responsibilities.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 11:12

@Holstein

Girls are conditioned from birth to be nice, be passive, be submissive, be kind, generous etc. If course we grow up to be undemanding in the workplace, including when it comes to pay reviews. Sadly many of us think we're not worth it.

I agree with you Holstein.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 11:13

@ThisFenceIsComfy

If we want an open discussion, then we need to drop the idea that women choose to take less pay and promotions because they are happy with it. Yes we all want to spend more time with our children, but in most cases it is because that is what is expected of us. We do the childcare, it is our jobs that suffer.

Men simply do not have that expectation of them. So long hours away from the home is rewarded. Rewarded but not necessary if there was an equal balance of childcare responsibility. You can say it's a choice but in reality, whether it sits well or not, this is a choice that is made for women, not by women. Generations of gender division and stereotypes have paved the way for this to be true.

I agree with all this too. I certainly don't think we've ended up in a place that is at all fair.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 11:14

@GreenPotato

Justine I am also a bit upset by this partly because you are seen as a kind of mouthpiece of MN.

I can see the valid points in what you wrote but there is a major misunderstanding/misrepresentation of women in there that unfortunately actively encourages discrimination.

It would be great to write a follow-up article addressing that point in the light of what MNers have said to you about it.

I don't agree that's it's a misrepresentation.

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 11:16

@GreenPotato

And there is nothing wrong with a decent work-life balance wherein the work is well and equally paid. In fact that's what we should be seeking for everyone, not just women. Why should wanting a work-life balance have to mean settling for a shitter deal? Yes, if you work fewer hours you should expect a smaller income but only proportionally.

Completely agree. Was what I was trying to say viz: "So, now we are working for no pay for the rest of the year, let us from today think about dismantling a model of work whose dysfunction is increasingly apparent."

JustineMumsnet · 06/11/2015 11:25

@GreenPotato

"women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

They certainly "seem to" to me. OK there is space for some semantic confusion as you may mean "they do care, but it doesn't look like that to their employers". But it can also be read as "Meh, look at women, they're just not that arsed about money really".

It would be good to be really clear that women do desperately care about being paid properly.

Yes women care about being paid properly, of course they do, but the evidence suggests that they also care more than men about a set of other things too - which leads them to sacrifice pay for some of those other things, like work-life balance.

My contention is there are lots of reasons for this to do with complicated factors like societal expectations, caring responsibilities, confidence etc. But what would help is if that employment practices were more flexible and men did more of their fair share.

What I don't think is helpful is just refusing to acknowledge that women often have a slightly different set of priorities (that's just burying your head in the sand imo).

JustineMumsnet · 07/11/2015 08:54

Morning - thanks for all your comments everyone.

I take the point about discriminatory "practices" probably being a poor choice of word - in context; "discriminatory policies and practices" where I was talking about employers and recruitment, I do stand by my subsequent statement - I don't think most companies deliberately set out to discriminate (and in my experience fact some positively discriminate towards women) but, of course, discrimination obviously still happens. Clearly from the sentiment expressed by some here though, it's obvious I could have worded it better though - apologies for that!

Secondly, I want to reiterate that I believe there is considerable evidence to show that women do care less about pay and promotion than men. Not that they don't care about those things, but that on the whole they care more than men about things like working environment and flexibility first. (Obviously this is an aggregate stat - there will be many exceptions etc etc). For many, many complicated reasons women are more likely to put their career second, relative to their male partners.

And this was the issue I was trying to highlight in the piece; that reducing the pay is complex, not simply a matter of reigning in nefarious employers - it needs a dramatic change in culture and behaviours - around parental leave, around the share of domestic and parenting responsibilities, as well as around unconscious bias and the messages we give women about how they behave in the workplace.

JustineMumsnet · 20/11/2015 22:52

Hi all, sorry for not coming back sooner. Thanks for further comments. Those sceptical about gender differences in employment priorities might want to
take a look at the 2015 Global Management Education Graduate Survey Report - as cited in my piece. (you can download here

This survey report explores the early job search results for 3,329 graduating business school students in the class of 2015 at 112 universities worldwide, representing 29 countries and 106 citizenship groups.

Here's the salient bit:

Key Employment Attributes
As part of the job search process, students must decide
which job opportunities to pursue and more importantly,
which job offer to accept. A variety of factors influence this
decision. When asked to select the five most important
attributes related to their future employment, total
compensation (57%), challenging and interesting work
(53%), opportunity for professional development (47%),
fit with company culture (42%) and advancement
opportunity (41%) were the most widely selected.
The top five employment attributes are similar for both
men and women in terms of the ones most widely selected
but there are some notable differences. Men are more likely
than women to place greater importance on compensation
(61% men vs. 51% women), advancement opportunity (44%
vs. 37%), job autonomy (12% vs. 9%), and visibility with
executive team (11% vs. 7%). Women, on the other hand, are
more likely than men to place importance on opportunity
for professional development (51% women vs. 44%
men), fit with company culture (46% vs. 40%), work-life
balance (35% vs. 28%), flexible schedules (12% vs. 7%), and
emphasis on community and inclusion (6% vs. 3%).

JustineMumsnet · 20/11/2015 23:09

@Preminstreltension

Justine, have you RTFT ? Wink

Of course I've RTFT Grin

JustineMumsnet · 24/11/2015 06:47

New research on UK sixth-formers showing girls less interested in salaries than boys.

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