To think Justine Roberts should not have written this in the FT

[FreeWorker]

Justine writes a comment column in the Recruitment section of the Financial Times section which most MNetters will not have seen as it is behind a paywall.

In her most recent article of yesterday she writes on the gender pay gap and I was astonished to read the following sentences:

"As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women."

"The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

One commentator under the FT article called Ezra sums up how I feel.

"Some valid observations - but to say that the gender pay gap has nothing to do with discrimination is frankly delusional."

For those who want to see the full article you may be able to read it via the following link if you search for it via Google and answer a few online questions:

For the rest of the year your pay will be zero

The Financial Times is an extremely influential newspaper in business and Government circles and Justine is also extremely influential as an opinion former because of MN.

AIBU to think that the views Justine has expressed in this article do not reflect the daily experience of women at work? AIBU to think it also contradicts the thousands of posts about unfair treatment at work by women on MN that show discrimination is rampant and that women DO care about salary and promotion?

I have name changed for this post but am a long time male poster on MN and have had male bosses throughout my career who openly and routinely made discriminatory comments in meetings when no women were around to hear them. They knowingly paid women less and passed them over for promotion. I worked in an industry where virtually no women make it to senior positions.

The gender pay gap is always about discrimination in my experience.

It depends on how you look at it. I actually thought Deo was selling her son. But I've noted that in previous posts Deo only seems to speak glowingly of her DD's, the schools they attended and their high flying careers.

DeoGratias, you have a very, very long track record of ignoring and playing down the contributions other people have made to your success. You did it all on your own, on merit and hard work and because you're just more virtuous than other people.

Ie, just like men whose privilege is invisible to them, and whose wives' contribution is invisible to them. And in your case, apparently your son's contribution...

Don't get me wrong, it can be good to see a woman playing that game and winning.

But you haven't made a radical change to the dysfunctional structure - you've just seized the male role while perpetrating the structure. You are actively contemptuous of people doing the grunt work, and your solution for women is that we should all become the top 1%. Er...

I think DG's DS sounds fine and if he can be respectful and supportive towards women that's what I'm hoping for for my DD one day. It only concerns me that he be so much judged by his DM and others. If our DC are finding their way in the world we should celebrate that and give them are whole-hearted support.

More generally on the thread as a whole, and the original article by Justine, I feel, as so often, that I'd just like to see women being more respectful and understanding of one another's choices. People broadly make the best choice for them and theirs from what they perceive as the available options.

And I'm not trying to hold you to a higher standard of behaviour than I would a man.

Just pointing out that you are following that standard of behaviour, where someone else will pick up the grunt work while you follow your dream.

And that any list of "secrets of my success" which omits that detail is unrealistic.

Wasn't she in the guardian yesterday calling 20k investment tiny?

"I believe there is considerable evidence to show that women do care less about pay and promotion than men."

If you have such evidence, and it shows exactly what you claim, you need to present it - it's not enough just to assert that it exists.

I am one of my son's supporters. He is certainly not under any kind of thumb. He is a bright boy who had a scholarship to MTS etc. I respect his different choices and only raise them because there are plenty of ways to live a life and not everyone has to make my choice to pick a high paid career (and yes of course others have had an impact on my ablity to earn a lot - not least the IQ my parents gave me via their genes perhaps most of all). I want all the childre to make their own informed choices. No one has ever required me to disclose not only that my daughters are London lawyers and their brother a graduate postman. I chose to do that because I feel we borrow our children and are lucky to have them in our lives and we don't make them - they are who they are; we have a minor influence but we learn as much from them as they from us. I am honoured to have all 5 of my children in my life and we debate all kinds of issues all the time including of course all the issues around career choice and ways to live a life.

The one who has chose lower paid work has chosen what I regard as the constitutes for personal happiness and balance of seratonin etc in the brain - that is being outside (delivering letters_), carrying heavy weights, fresh air, exercise and he is early to bed every day and finishes work entirely by about 3. Who is to say that is the wrong way to live a life? I certainly would be supportive too though if he wanted to go off to work in Costa Rica or take another course or I'd pay for 2 years of law school etc etc. as it gets harder as you get older to change a life and career so people need to be careful in their 20s not to make choices they might regret later but he knows I don't worship money. Like most people who previously never had much I very much respect the fact I have enough money now to feed and house us - I wake up every day grateful for that. I will never take that for granted. If a burglar vame here there is nothing much to steal as money and things mean very little to me.

I throw the post man into the mix as he's first of all social mobility in reverse which you need to enable others to rise as it were. Secondly, he is a man who has many characteristics of a good father, all those years of experience with children (his choice - gosh I've never pushed him into what he does for his brothers, it comes out of love), his feminist values, his respect for career women. I am one of his greatest admirers.

I've always thought one reason many women on here put their career second and I didn't is because of the marrying up issue. Women tend to marry men a bit older who earn more. They subconsciously seek out the good provider rather than the postman. They may not admit it to themselves but they tend to so when you have a perfectly non sexist conversation as to whether man gives up £40k a year to loiok after children or woman £20k we allk now which career will go to the wall. that was reversed in my case and I benefited from that. Women women marry "beta men" as often as men marry women who earn less or will earn less then we will find that feeding into more women working full time in decent careers.

Could people stop giving women messages about "how to behave in the workplace". It's so patronising and crap. I and the women I work with are tough and successful women. We do not need to go on assertiveness training courses .

I'd really appreciate a spokesman (albeit an unofficial one) for working women sending messages to men about how to behave in the workplace. I think the FT could take it - but apparently it's easier to send messages to women about how to behave

And this was the issue I was trying to highlight in the piece; that reducing the pay is complex, not simply a matter of reigning in nefarious employers - it needs a dramatic change in culture and behaviours - around parental leave, around the share of domestic and parenting responsibilities, as well as around unconscious bias and the messages we give women about how they behave in the workplace.

Well it would have been good to have actually said that. But you didn't and I'm afraid it may have done some damage to the strive for equality.

I disagree that it's not a responsibility of employers to make pay and opportunity equal. I think there is much employers (and the state) can do and I listed some of them up thread but simple things like paying for the work not the worker, blind recruitment, blind pay reviews, equal pay audits, equal benefits (especially parental ones).

FreeWorker
fascicle - I know the point you are driving at in your question. I have seen it asked often on MN in general and directly to me a few times.

It goes something like this:

"Why aren't decent men doing more to stop the discrimination against women. Do they not have mothers, sisters, wives and daughters?"

That's not an accurate summary of my point - too narrow. You've misinterpreted (which is pretty much what you and many, many others have done here with the FT article - seized upon words which could have been phrased better, or expressions that could have done with qualifying words). My question related to the actions taken by somebody - anybody - who observes, feels and writes passionately about, any discimination or injustice. Not sex or gender specific; not specifically relating to discrimation against women. Thank you for your response. It would be interesting to know the field you work in, although I understand you might not wish to share that.

SoftDriftedSnow
I am fed up to the back teeth of dealing with mediocre men in relatively senior positions. That they would be equally shit at the home stuff should be no comfort to anyone.

Others have applauded your post at 19:32 yesterday. You made some very valid points, but the bit I've quoted is as outrageous as the discrimination against women that you feel so strongly about. Stereotyping, denigrating, making negative assumptions about men does absolutely nothing to advance equality for women.

Preminstreltension, I think you would enjoy the Twitter account manwhohasitall who tweets the exact kind of statements we hear about women every day, but with the gender reversed. They are both hilarious and eye-opening, e.g. "I have absolutely nothing against male politicians with kids, as long as they can handle the pressure.", "To all confident men. Don't be AFRAID of your confidence! It's OK to be a man and be confident. Some women actually find it attractive."

Worth a look even if you're not a Tweeter, it's very funny.

I still find Justine's position I want to reiterate that I believe there is considerable evidence to show that women do care less about pay and promotion than men. frustrating. What does care mean in this context? The preference is massively skewed by other factors. We're not choosing off the same menu as men.

tribpot
I think 'care' is not the best word to have used and some people are translating 'do care less' as 'don't care at all'. I think really the point is about prioritising (any in many cases having to prioritise) other considerations before pay.

The research looking at women in senior positions suggests otherwise. This is an interesting read about the myths of women in the workplace

www.kpmg.com/uk/en/issuesandinsights/articlespublications/pages/cracking-the-code-research–behavioural-differences-in-the-workplace.aspx

Discussed this with my DH this morning. He pointed out he never has cared about pay and promotion - I think it is just how he is rather than because he married up .

The serious point is that despite the fact that he has never cared he has always been sought out and pushed forward by his superiors for pay rises and promotions. This does not happen for women ime.

On the policies of employers and governments and their impact I would say that they are significant. The workplace in the US is a more equal place (albeit because everyone has fewer rights) and I think it is no coincidence that the pay gap is lower there.

Your link leads to a KPMG "Page cannot be found" Sopie.

If you google KPMG and title:

www.kpmg.com/uk/en/issuesandinsights/articlespublications/pages/cracking-the-code-research%E2%80%93behavioural-differences-in-the-workplace.aspx

despite the fact that he has never cared he has always been sought out and pushed forward by his superiors for pay rises and promotions. This does not happen for women ime.

Thank you, howabout and your DH, for this.

The question of how much men care, or are expected to care, goes begging yet again.

Men doing it right and women doing it wrong is the assumed starting point.

And the OP's point is that it is extremely disappointing to have a woman who makes her living out of our community to give those lazy assumptions even more credibility than they already have with people who have their own interests in making them.

Quite right, BathtimeFunkster. Really useful comment from howabout.

I couldn't get the KPMG link to work above so here is another link just in case.

www.kpmg.com/UK/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Pages/cracking-the-code-research%E2%80%93behavioural-differences-in-the-workplace.aspx

It is a really interesting read especially the point about women's ambition being a slow burn but catching men up. This is what I am seeing as a woman in my 40's that myself and my peers are less and less tolerant of the status quo.

Apologies. Thanks facicle!

The article would have been much better with the last paragraph of Justine's latest post included. As it actually was, it does effectively shrug and say 'women, they're just wired differently, what can you do?' That sentence about women not caring about promotion etc needed the 'many complicated reasons' bit right alongside, to make it clear that for some women this is purely their choice but for others, it's a choice they feel pressured to make by the people in their lives and social circumstances. Unfortunately, the message that will be taken from it is the one many senior workplace people will be happy to continue to use to not promote women. Not the best way to support other women and mothers.

I think Deo makes a good point though about writing in to the letters page to give views on this. Why not? It at least would round things out.

Ive been stewing on thinking about this and the more I do the more wrong I feel Justine has got this. Pay is not complex. Pay is simple: it is simply the exchange of labour for money. What is complex is how we perceive the value of that labour and those perceptions are routed in misogyny which is evidenced by the discrimination that manifests as the gender pay gap and lack of equal representation in all industry at all levels.

Women make up 51% of the population and yet we are treated as if we were a tiny minority and should change our behaviour to fit in. No.
If the current system is not working (and it isn't as evidenced by above) then is that the fault of the majority of people entering it? No. It is obviously the fault of the system and that is what has to change.

Stop making excuses and absolving employers of their responsibilities Justine. While I agree this is a bigger issue employers are the only people employing and paying so when it comes to the gender pay gap they need to step up and shake it up!

There are these examples:-

MBA year group. All the men got their next job after at higher pay than the women - why? They asked them/ Every man asked for more pay than offered. Every woman thought she was lucky to get a job at all and accepted the pay offered in gratitude. That's about attitude.

Second job in Wales advertised at £50k. No woman applied. They advertised again same job at £30k and women applied.

I agree that these tweets are always worth looking at twitter.com/manwhohasitall

In our teens my sister and I read the Enid Blyton books outloud but reversing the genders which really did illustrate the sexism in them. I hope teenage girls today do the same or the modern equivalent. If we could start writing about working fathers and how Mr Roberts copes with work and family and how he balances life etc as often as we ask about how women manage we will start to make progress.

howabout, you touch on my libertarian point in a sense there with the USA - my point being that women do worse in the UK than US as we are given the apparently riches of long maternity leaves in some cases on full pay so we get mired into domesticity in a way that damages our interests which men don't. Is the reason I earn so much that I had virtually no maternity rights with each baby?

Though Justine is frustratingly unwilling to shift much in her position, I do think this is a fantastic thread. So many incredibly informed and experienced people spelling out exactly what the problems really are, stuff that everyone (and especially all girls growing up) should understand. I weighed in early on to oppose Justine and yet what I've learned from this thread is that it's actually worse than even I thought.

Thanks OP and all the posters.