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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Teaching atheism to primary kids...

94 replies

sparklewater · 05/11/2015 19:09

Posting here for traffic. Have somehow ended up agreeing to talk to DD's school tomorrow, as they're having a prayer for world peace week - learning about different religions and the refugee situation.

I popped along to one to see what was going on as have no religion and got nobbled. They want me to explain that not everyone believes, but that we still help others because of x, y, z.

Any advice on how to do this without coming across as negative about religion?

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sparklewater · 05/11/2015 23:27

The school have a prayer / meditation week each year. They focus on a specific area of world peace, and learn about the topic and how different belief systems might view it / help / etc.

I was sceptical that it might all just be an excuse to talk religion, so I went along to see. Said I didn't believe and they asked me to talk tomorrow. I think it's good that an alternative to having faith is being presented as part of this whole project.

chief I was unsure of what to say as I don't have a holy book or similar to rely on, nor do I spend time daily or weekly ruminating on something I don't believe in.

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sparklewater · 05/11/2015 23:31

I like that Kew - will try and think of a way to use it without pissing people off ;)

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Flashbangandgone · 05/11/2015 23:31

Atheism is anti religious - a firm disbelief in there being no deity or merit in any practised religion.

To add to points raised on this, belief in God doesn't mean someone is religious - plenty of people have a real belief in a higher power, but don't anchor that down to an organised religion....

and many people follow a religion that doesn't believe in an almighty God (Buddhism, Wicca, progressive Christianity)

tabulahrasa · 05/11/2015 23:44

"I was unsure of what to say as I don't have a holy book or similar to rely on, nor do I spend time daily or weekly ruminating on something I don't believe in."

You're overthinking it though Smile

Hello I'm Sparklewater, I'm an atheist, that means that I don't follow any religion because I don't believe in god.

I support the refugees because...society works by supporting everyone in it, I hope someone would help me if I were in that position or whatever reasons you come up with.

Actual atheism doesn't need a huge explanation, it's dead straightforward.

ReallyTired · 05/11/2015 23:53

I think you could say that you don't believe in an afterlife and that you feel important to make the best of the present. Supporting the Syrian refugees is an act of humanity. Drowned Syrian refugees become skeletons and that is the end and as an atheist that upsets you. As humans we are the ones with power to make the world a better place rather than relying on divine intervention. Compassion is something that all human beings are capable of.

Actually many Christians would agree with roughly half what I wrote.

sparklewater · 05/11/2015 23:54

tabula I think you might be right! Thanks for writing my intro for me Grin

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sparklewater · 05/11/2015 23:58

reallytired

That is exactly what I think - that we are strong enough, both individually and collectively, to make good things happen ourselves. It kept sounding like I was being rude when I ran through it in my head though!

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MrsTerryPratchett · 06/11/2015 00:00

I would talk about the genetic basis of 'morality'. Starting with en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism. Then move onto www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/gurvenBES2004.pdf hunter-gatherer food sharing. I would love this job...

SolidGoldBrass · 06/11/2015 00:01

I think it's really good that the school are including non-religious viewpoints. Loads of people live happy and honourable lives without imaginary friends; plenty of people who do have (or claim to have) religious beliefs use whatever their preferred set of myths is to justify appalling mistreatment of others.

Schools are on the whole expected to teach pupils that some people believe in Imaginary friend A (Jesus), some believe in Imaginary friend B (Allah) and all the rest of it - if they are doing that then they really do need to add in the fact (because it is a fact) that some people don't believe in any of them.

kippersmum · 06/11/2015 00:15

I really wish my DDs school was as open minded as your local school. I'm an atheist, I believe in science, not a fairy story. I would never impose my beliefs on anyone, particularly not my children. I have the rule when they decide what they want to believe in that's fine.

DD1 is leaning towards the christian faith. Great, I did a Light Party with her rather than halloween.

DD2 is very ambitious about being a scientist & is definitely an atheist at the moment. There is nothing for atheists at school! It is totally disregarded.

It would be good if both my daughters had the same range of opportunities for exploring their beliefs

ouryve · 06/11/2015 00:17

I think the idea that atheism isn't an alternative belief system or religion can be a hard one to get across. People brought up in a particular (particularly monotheistic) faith have it built into their lives that they pray in a certain way, act according to certain standards, read particular religious texts, visit particular religious establishments on certain days and so on.

Communicating that no, atheists don't have their equivalents to all of these things has he potential to be mind blowing to some people who can often be under the impression that atheists are missing out on something. There is no "Sunday is a special day for us because that is the day that we don't go to church". Sunday is just a day, just like any other, but a lot of things are closed and buses are crap.

And as SGB mentioned, there is no praying to someone or something. We just have to think hard about dilemmas.

Conversely, there is no hell, fire and damnation or any equivalent (including karma) just as there is no heaven and there is definitely no reincarnation or any other variation on an afterlife. Once we're dead and our nervous system has shut down, we're not in a position to care because there is no soul that survives after the body is gone. Some of these bits may get your bit cut short, mind!

i think the big thing to point out is that atheism is about living in the here and now, in the physical world and there is no spiritual aspect to it.

lorelei9 · 06/11/2015 00:27

OP, I think it's great that you are you doing this but I am a bit surprised that you wanted advice.

Tbh some people are always going to take offence at the mention of the word atheism (I got called a "hater" on a thread because of it), but you can easily say that you don't need a god, a book or set of rules in order to treat people well. I think it's an instinctive thing myself. I don't know how full on you want to be but you could tell them about any good examples of atheists who you feel have done good stuff.

I have looked up this peace week and I'm a tad confused as it is showing up as September?

zipzap · 06/11/2015 00:53

I tend to think of religions as man-made constructs used to explain and control the majority of the population by the few (usually men) that have made it to being the favoured few...

That it was easier to control the population if they thought there was a god watching them and that would punish them for bad behaviour, reward for good etc. Also it's a way of explaining the unexplainable - because you don't have to actually know why the river flooded or there was a forest fire, you can just say 'god did it because somebody upset him/pleased him' and so on.

Many religions have incorporated basic tenets of human morality and tried to claim them as their own but they're not really tied into the religion per se, they're a human thing not a religious thing.

They provide a framework for living that was useful back in time (eg by including things like the eating restrictions for Jews, Muslims and others as well as the be good/don't murder people/etc stuff) but these days isn't really necessary. Caveated that obviously if you got rid of the religious stuff you wouldn't get rid of the basic human decency part - as lots of religions tend to imply!

And whilst lots of people do get some sort of comfort and support from being part of a religion, they are also a source of wars, a way of controlling people (particularly women) and a lot of bad things have happened in the name of religions as well as the good side of things.

however I'm not sure how far you'd be allowed to go through that if the school is religious!

I'd also point out that in some countries atheism is seen as being incredibly dangerous and there is even the death penalty for it in some countries. Countries like Saudi Arabia for example you might expect not to be keen on atheism - and whilst they don't particularly like other religions, they would prefer somebody to be of another religion that to have no belief - I guess they seem to think that if too many people started to think like that they'd no longer have the control they currently have. But places like the USA and Ireland also are anti atheists - in the USA there are lots of places where atheists aren't allowed government roles Shock for example.

This map is a good one - shows the 13 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death: www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

Another article that shows where atheism is widespread - in the UK they reckon it's about 66% for example... www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/

And then in Bangladesh recently there have been several prominent atheists murdered.

So being atheist is not just an easy option that means you don't have to get up early to go to church on a sunday etc - it can have serious ramifications on your life if you publicly declare yourself to be an atheist in many countries.

TheNewStatesman · 06/11/2015 02:53

I find it baffling that school-led prayer is still allowed in British state schools. Leading prayer of any kind should be illegal in the UK, like it is in the US.

Nothing wrong with teaching children ABOUT religion in school time, but that is very different to leading prayers.

And atheism should be taught alongside teaching about religions.

Mehitabel6 · 06/11/2015 07:10

I don't know why you are baffled TheNewStatesman it is the law and in the education acts.
The US doesn't have a state religion- they are very different countries.
I can see why you are baffled as to why it is still the law in 2015 but not that 'it is still allowed' as if it is a voluntary thing for schools rather than a requirement of all schools. England has no secular state schools.
I think it is very enlightened of this school to get OP to speak - which is why they should take it seriously and discuss what they think rather than have a rant and make everyone yawn.

(I never understand how God can be seen as an imaginary friend when God is not a 'he' , a person or a friend. I am sure that some people are stuck with the 'old man with a beard')

Flashbangandgone · 06/11/2015 08:12

Another article that shows where atheism is widespread - in the UK they reckon it's about 66% for example...

The article gives 50-75% as being atheist or non-religious.... Being non-religious doesn't necessarily make you an atheist. There are a huge number who are either agnostics or have some kind of belief but are not religious. In fact I'd imagine the majority (or a significant minority) probably fall into this no-mans-land in between. Perhaps schools should recognise this rather than assume you need to define yourself in a religion or as an atheist.

Mehitabel6 · 06/11/2015 08:28

Which is probably why people get turned off by people who are at the extremes of either end.

Pico2 · 06/11/2015 09:54

For those who are puzzled as to why the OP would like help, surely it's about pitching it right for the audience and which of the many directions to take. If you don't work/volunteer with children then you really need to prepare for something like this.

lorelei9 · 06/11/2015 10:38

Pico, the OP didn't ask for that kind of advice, she said "Any advice on how to do this without coming across as negative about religion?"

As I say, I know just the word "atheist" freaks some people out, but I think it's pretty easy to talk about atheism without saying anything negative about religion.

zipzap · 06/11/2015 10:58

Flashbang - sorry - it was late and I was tired so didn't bother typing 'or non religious' after atheists, I should have. Re-reading my post - it was one of those where it was clear to me last night when I was tired but I wanted to get to bed quickly too, which is probably a dangerous time to be typing something you want to make sense Grin

However if you look further down the article, there's a bar chart that gives 66% as the figure for the UK, rather than the broad categories on the map.

And yes - it would be interesting to find out how many people think of themselves as 'culturally' C of E as opposed to practising C of E! (ie they like to have Christmas and Easter, getting married in a church etc but can't be bothered with going to church every week or actually thinking about God in a particularly meaningful way. (or indeed culturally any other religion) And then to wonder which category they fall into!

sparklewater · 06/11/2015 11:31

lorelei

I was wary of simplifying a lack of religion so that 5 yr old can understand would mean presenting an active rejection of religion, which feels unfair. I have had lots of helpful advice here though so feel well prepared now.

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sparklewater · 06/11/2015 11:31

*wary that

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TheNewStatesman · 06/11/2015 11:58

"I don't know why you are baffled TheNewStatesman it is the law and in the education acts.
The US doesn't have a state religion- they are very different countries."

Yes, I know it's the law. I just think it's really, really bizarre that it IS still the law.

The laws were written when the UK was an overwhelmingly Christian, mostly CoE country. Things are different now, and schools are full of people with all kinds of religions or none at all. It's daft to still have schools leading prayer.

tabulahrasa · 06/11/2015 12:39

"I was wary of simplifying a lack of religion so that 5 yr old can understand would mean presenting an active rejection of religion, which feels unfair."

They should know that people believe different things already...I think it's perfectly fine and straightforward to just say you don't believe in any religion in the context of looking at different beliefs, which is what it sounds like they're doing.

tabulahrasa · 06/11/2015 12:42

"The laws were written when the UK was an overwhelmingly Christian, mostly CoE country. Things are different now, and schools are full of people with all kinds of religions or none at all. It's daft to still have schools leading prayer."

The US not having state religion is also because of religion though, it was because people who felt persecuted here wanted to practice their religion rather than because they really had altruistic intentions about inclusivity and diversity.