expressed interested in 'trying out' gender fluidity

[ktclanmom]

Our daughter has recently expressed a desire to officially present herself as a male at school. She would like to 'try out' life as a male, and thinks that she might find life easier as such. She says been pondering the concept for some time, but that this interest comes and goes. The only thing I have been able to come up with to try and put a name to her feelings is gender fluidity.

We are a very open minded family...about as open minded as we can get I would think. We are a same sex couple. Our daughter has always had two moms (I am new to the family, but there was another mama before me). My partner spent most of her youth in the closet, and has a first-hand understanding of the confusion, shame, and everything else that comes with knowing that you are not the same as everyone else. Our problem is that we don't actually believe that our daughter has gender issues.

She is extremely emotional, very dramatic, and highly prone to obsessions. She has a boyfriend. She has always been very feminine and very attracted to boys. She has gone through phases where she has fallen in love with cartoon characters, wanted to marry video game characters, and even become anime characters. At any given moment she can be absolutely passionately involved in her current infatuation, and yet she might change her focus so fast she gives us whiplash. She loves to draw, and for the past year she has often drawn herself as a male character (usually in animal form). She also often draws her boyfriend and other friends as their opposite gender. She has a friend at school who is transgender, and she often comments on how cute he is...

So my concern is this... Is she truly in conflict in regards to her gender, or is she entertaining a romantic notion about recent social trends? We want to be supportive, but we are not convinced that this is not an avenue of escape for her typical adolescent discontent with herself and her looks. She has not been depressed or fighting with self-acceptance. She does not seem troubled by her mother's refusal to accept her suggestion. Her mother is upset that her misappropriation of the transgender/gender fluid issue belittles the trials and hardship that people experience when they are truly dealing with gender issues.

I am not sure how to proceed...

The can call me what they want, it doesn't make it true.

And actually I was talking about all of the issues. The 'high dramatic' and 'prone to obsession'

I would also say that the mother maybe a problem. Does she have a habit of writing off her dds feelings.

Until the OP comes back it's impossible to say anything.

As I said in my first post, what they should do depends on what she wants to do to test it out. Can't really advise anything else.

Hyper cool? Jesus wept. There's nothing cool about the anguish, torment, pain, depression and suicidal thoughts of any of the trans people I've ever known. Not saying all trans people have that experience when transitioning - but a lot of my friends have.

Teenagers experiment, go through phases, explore who they are and their identity and place in this world. It's normal.

"She would like to 'try out' life as a male, and thinks that she might find life easier as such."

I just bet she would. Everyone finds life easier as a male. That's because of patriarchy. However, most women can never pass as male and take the easy way out. Most women would, even with surgery and hormones, still be recognised as female, and oppressed by patriarchy.

Let her do what she wants, short hair, trousers, whatever, but don't encourage any notions that that means she is not female.
Don't accuse her of "misappropriation" either, just stay neutral on the subject. Let her be herself. As Lemony says, opposing her might just cause more problems.

And maybe introduce her to radical feminism. Show her that 'living as male' is not the only way out of oppression. Get her to read blogs like this: blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/ if you can.

vestalvirgin makes a good point. That we would all find life easier as male.

That's quite depressing really when you look at it, I.e. how much difficultly we encounter as females. I know it's not news but it does bring it home.

Well, I don't see why she can't have a more 'masculine' look. I'm thinking she wants to wear short hair, shirts, trousers, boots? It's teenage experimenting and it's her body, so I think you should go with her flow.

But maybe have more of an open discussion about what gender is. Explore her thinking. Don't be afraid of what she might say, just listen and explore it together. It might be she just wants to experience the more entitled life of a boy in a patriarchal society and feel how that feels for a while. Or she might want to look different from girls and boys her age and experiment with looking more androgenous.

Anyway, you shouldn't really tell her what to wear as a teen unless it's offensive (like sweary t-shirts). It's up to her.

Take it as an opportunity to talk about what it means to be a woman in today's world and the whole range of womanhood people experience. And maybe what it's like to be a man and the range of manhood people experience.

The trans teen 'thing' is cool right now. I seem to have a lounge full of them and they are not all tortured souls. They feed off Tumblr and it's bullshit.

Sure, they have found a 'tribe' and it's cool. Fair enough.

By the way referrals to my local gender clinic have doubled over the last three months. They have had several hundred in the last few weeks. Why?

LittleSnaily
I don't think your child would go through the discomfort of binding or consider surgery just for fun. It's difficult to be different as a teenager and not really something someone would choose. Did anyone ever suggest to you that being bi was a phase you would grow out of? How did that make you feel?

I think ALL teens are tortured at some point and find themselves thinking they are 'different' - but dd's interpretation of that is that she is therefore trans. She has NEVERTHELESS said she wants to be a boy - just that she wants to be 'trans'. I don't think this is remotely healthy.

Sorry NEVERTHELESS SHOULD SAY NEVER.

We do have two trans friends. They had a consistent narrative and lived as their transitioned gender since they were small. Did has always been a very content girlie girl. That's very different.

I agree with you. And have also been very 'butch' at various points in my life. Currently have my head shaved very short...

@Damselindestress: Girls don't do it just for fun. That's what I was getting at. To be born female in this world means to be considered "different" even though we are half the population.

That's a lot of pain, and the whole reality usually hits girls when they enter puberty. It is quite normal to want to get out of that. There are lots of novels where the heroine binds her breasts to pass as male without any gender feelings, just to be able to do what she wants to do.

Sorry if I'm wrong but I just cannot imagine someone wanting to have their breasts removed because they think being trans is trendy in some way. Trying a different style of clothes or hair is one thing but not major surgery.

Sorry x-posted that was in reply to LittleSnaily

'Cutting' was de rigour when I was at school. There are many people who cut/self harm for psychological reasons and some of the people I knew definitely fell into that category. For others it was about self identifying as part of a group. These kids were showing off their scars like trophies, not hiding them under long sleeved tops. There have been papers written on cutting as part of youth/goth culture and I don't think this tsunami of trans identifiers is so very different.

It's like LittleSnaily said about her dd. She doesn't want to be a boy, she wants to be 'trans'. I think that's very significant.

from today's Guardian

Children seeking gender identity advice sees 100% increase, says NHS

There's always the option of talking to her about the difference between biological sex and gender. Sex being a binary, physical, unchangeable state of female / male (leaving aside intersex for now) and the other being made up bullshit designed to tell people how they should look and behave to meet stereotypes (manly/girly, blue/pink, masculine/feminine, strong/weak). Designed to keep people in their place in a hierarchy.

It's no surprise that your daughter has realised that males get a much better time of it than females.

But it is much more radical to consider rejecting gender completely because the whole concept completely, utterly sucks and is a bloody caste system.
Wanting to transition from the shitty side to the more privileged side is completely understandable - but it involves accepting the status quo and it reinforces keeping women in the shitty, bottom half of society. Lots of women are realising that the concept of gender is very, very damaging, for both sexes but especially for females.

I would be encouraging my child to do, be, wear and like whatever she wants. There is no personality trait or way of presenting yourself that is incompatible with being female.

Just because she had a second mother before you and you are also female, that doesnt make her your daughter. You dont get to just jump into that role. Be careful your new appearance in the family and immediate insistence that she is your new daughter and you are her new mum, isnt completely unsettling her

Ok I'm back - apologies, I only have computer time in the evenings.

I appreciate all the ideas that have come up here. I really wasn't expecting such a strong response.

First of all, I really don't know what she has/had in mind when she said that she wanted to 'try it out'. She did say that she wanted to have and use a different name, but also indicated that she didn't think she would do it all the time. I'm not sure how much further she may have thought about the whole thing. It has been 2 days since she brought this up, and she has not said another word, nor has she made any move to take any action. Today she is wanting to dye her hair and become a ginger, because she has pale skin so she thinks it would suit her better than her light brown hair. She does not seem troubled in any way (nor has she for the past months).

For the record, I have not given her my personal opinion on the matter. Her mother was upset, but I am the calm one and I am just trying to get more information before I give her any sort of advice. That is why I am here asking for other opinions and perspectives, and have been reading everything I can find on the internet.

There are no gender-roles in this family. There isn't any pressure to dress or act in any specific way due to gender. My daughter (she is my daughter to me, regardless of me being the 'step' - more later) wears the clothes that she chose and she has plenty of non-feminine clothes. Her mother buys her sports bras and boy-short panties, because she herself never liked girly things. My daughter came to me and asked me to take her shopping for nicer bras and undies. If she wants to dress like a boy, nobody here would ever tell her not to. She has short hair and a very slight build, and can easily pass as a boy when she wants to. She has in fact gone to school as a boy, and we didn't question or criticize. She has also gone to school as a dragon, a cat.... She goes to public school so there is no dress code. She has not mentioned binding (and really wouldn't need it at this point).

As for the family situation, the 'other mama' has been gone from the household for about 7 years. She was gone long before that in any functional sense, as she was addicted to pills and was basically dysfunctional for the last few years. My daughter was too young to really know what was going on. She had contact with her 'mama' over the years, as much as her 'mama' wanted - which was sporadic and 3 out of 4 times she would make plans then dump on her. She has been denied contact for the past few months as she has moved into harder drugs and is refusing to get help and get clean in order to see her 'daughter' again. I have been connected to the family for nearly 3 years, and she began acknowledging me as her 'new other mom' before I ever really thought about what I would mean to her, and long before I actually moved in this past summer. I know I fill a void in her life, and I do it happily, but I have always let her show me what role she wants me to play in her life. She doesn't call me mom, but she introduces me to people as her step-mom, and I am the one she wants at all her school conferences and meetings. I know that there are adjustments for her to our new blended family, but she has really blossomed since we came here, is doing much better in school than the past few years, and has really improved in overall attitude. She used to hate school, hate all the people in her school, hate people in general... Now she enjoys school, is mostly pleasant to people, and has a lot of new friends.

ok, this is definitely long enough...

Tbh if she has dressed as a boy before I don't see the issue.

You say you don't know to what extent she wants to try it out. So I don't see the need for all the worry coming from your dp. It's something she has done before.

Wait until she brings it up again and then ask for more detail. If I were you I would be reluctant to start insisting the school calls her he, inisists she uses the men's facilities etc. Until she is sure about what she wants. Also you need to discuss with her how she expects the school to call her a different name, but not all the time. How on earth will they know what name to call her each day?

Thank you for explaining the set up further. I wouldn't call you 'new to the family' though.

I am assuming you are not in the UK, because of the timings of your posts. Which may make a difference to the schools willingness to go along with it.

It's possible it's a phase. It's also possible that it's not. Tbh I would wait for her to bring it up again. Then have a good chat with her. Would she come to you again? Did your dp react badly, in front of her, when she mentioned it before? Is she quite open with you and/or your dp?

If it is because life in society is harder for women, in general. Then I think the answer would be to show her all the things women are doing to change this and let her be part of it. Rather than living as a man to escape it.

OP, I would be fully supportive. At the very least, your daughter has a very interesting and unusual, nom mainstream character. This desire may not have any basis in gender issues but it certainly has basis in her need to experiment. So just go with it. What good could possibly come from fighting her on it. You would be better putting your energy into trying to protect her within her choices (ie preparing her for any bullying from judgemental members of society and making sure she has a safe and accepting home to come back to etc).

Enjolrass, I agree with you that it should not be an issue because she does dress like a boy at times and it has never been a problem with us. I am concerned at the fact that she felt she needed to express a desire to try it out 'officially', and it does make me wonder to what extent she wants to take this.

I think my feeling of being 'new to the family' is based on the fact that we have only been formally living together for a few months. Up to now Ive been around on weekends and during long holidays. The full-time blended family is 'new'.

I think you are right in that I should wait for her to bring it up again. I think she will come to me before she talks to her mother again. She had actually said she wanted to talk to me before she talked to us together, because she anticipated a freak-out reaction from her mother. I am trying to make a mental list of questions to ask her if/when she brings it up again.

Onthepigsback, I do plan to be supportive, but I do admit that letting her 'go with it' may depend on how she actually wants to deal with this. I agree with Enjolrass that it seems ridiculous to expect teachers (and friends) to change what they refer to her as depending on her personal mood at that time. It may seem strange, but I am sure her mother would be more supportive if she seemed more resolute about it. She will always have a loving and accepting home, but there would be a lot of 'I told you so' going around if it did turn out to be a phase and she got bored with it or whatever.

I have to say you sounds like a great step parent.

I think this is one of those situations where only time will tell. And the answer may become clear as time passes.

As I said in my first post there are quite a few kids at dds secondary that I pass when I pick her up and I have no idea if they are girls or boys. They could be boys with a longer hairstyle or girls in trousers and shorter hair. A few have the same haircut as me. Kind of a crop but grown out a bit.

At dds school your dd would not stand out turning up with short hair and trousers. Maybe that's the first step, if she does decide to go down this route. Then see how she feels before approaching the school and asking for name changes etc.

For now just be there for her to chat to. Sounds like you are planning on doing that anyway.

She goes to public school so there is no dress code.

Goodness where does she go? Being allowed to dress as a dragon or cat is certainly not my experience of public school!