To think this is a very good analogy

[Babycham1979]

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/consent-its-a-piece-of-cake/17594#.Vjh4hpiUR6Y

I appreciate the aims of the campaign to promote public understanding of 'consent', but I agree with the author in that this seems to be dangerously blurring the lines and criminalising behaviour that is, at worst, antisocial (ie persuasion).

Rather like the recent events with 'safe spaces' and censorship, I suspect this will ultimately backfire on its proponents.

They are a big problem for the minority of men that fall victim to them but like I said minority's don't count because they are men, hell mend anyone that suggests otherwise. Your opening sentence really says it all though

Fair enough BlueJug

I think the issue is that the incidence of rape and the kinds of thoughts and behaviour that drive men to commit rape is a huge issue and something that women everywhere should be concerned about - it's a massive threat to our safety and well being.

False accusations of rape, on the other hand, are a very small problem, affecting only a small number of men.

And - crucially - men have the power to protect themselves from false allegations. They just need to not have sex with anyone who hasn't made it absolutely clear that they want to have sex.

Women, on the other hand, can do very little to stop themselves being victims of rape.

So raising the issue of false allegations gets shouted down because so many people are frustrated that women are expected to discuss it, be sympathetic, support actions to prevent it, when a) it's up to men to change their behaviour and b) it's such a tiny issue compared to the much bigger issues that women face.

Wouldn't you shout at someone who was fussing over a mosquito bite when you were both in danger of being eaten by a lion?

Yes they are a big problem for the wrongly accused person just like rape is a big problem for the victim. In an ideal world neither thing would happen.

However, the focus on false accusations can make it look like a much bigger problem than it really is. To put it in perspective the Crown Prosecution Service report I linked to above showed that there were 35 prosecutions for false allegations v 5651 prosecutions for rape over the period studied.

So for every 1 false allegation prosecution there were just over 161 rape prosecutions.

Perhaps one of the issues is that the majority don't feel that they are being taken seriously.

If you are raising boys and teaching them that consent is a "grey area", then you are raising them to be rapists.

Maybe they'll turn out better than you've raised them and manage not to rape anyone, but it won't be thanks to you.

Anyone who reads that cake article and thinks it is a "good analogy" and is raising boys to think likewise is a rape apologist teaching boys that rape is fine as long as you can get away with it.

That the important thing about a sexual encounter is getting what you want with no comeback.

It is an article that supports rape as long as you can get away with it.

The tea analogy is "here is how you can make sure you have consent."

The cake analogy is "here is how you justify not having consent and claim it is not rape."

If you read the cake article and think "yes, that makes sense. That is what we should teach young people about consent", you support teaching young men how to exploit "grey areas" in consent (or in reality in the public's misunderstanding of consent) to get away with rape and young women that they must not complain if someone takes advantage of their vulnerability in order to rape them.

I think loosing your livelyhood and essentially your life are more than a mosquito bite and worthy if a mention? It shouldn't trivialise the issue to suggest that the likes if my friend, the chap mentioned by a PP who left the country and the man on the BBC programme are also victims I'm agree, men's attitudes need to change but reading through this thread there are a lot if attitudes that need to change!

I am also pretty concerned that while we dispute these details and talk about blame and victims what we are not AND SHOULD BE doing is applying common sense and doing everything to educate boys and girls how not to get into these situations in the first place.

Warn about the dangers of drinking too much - for both sexes. Warn about being clear - for both sexes.

She needs to be clear with her yes and clear with her no. He needs to be absolutely sure - and should check with her, and should back off if he thinks there could be any doubt whatsoever. Both should know when to leave if things are getting a bit "blurry".

We should be teaching kids to watch out for friends, (I was rescued once by a very good friend). Men and women. A man should say to his mate who is getting a bit heavy when drunk or who is pestering a woman who is possibly too drunk to consent - "Come away now". (Macho culture seems to prevent this at the moment)

Teach about games and how "playing hard to get", "teasing/ flirting/leading on",or persuading/ "wooing"/seducing are actually not very sensible and can be so easily misunderstood.

We can't do that unless we are open and able to discuss this.

I'm not saying they aren't victims and what happened to them is utterly wrong. I'm just trying to put the problem of false allegations in perspective. You focus on 3 men suffering due to false allegations and I agree they are victims but using the CPS statistics for every 3 prosecutions for false allegations there are over 483 prosecutions for rape. Lets also spare a thought for the 483 potential victims of rape.

"Maybe they'll turn out better than you've raised them and manage not to rape anyone, but it won't be thanks to you."

Out of line Bathtime.

PS - please don't talk about "raising rapists". Offensive, unhelpful, goady, personal.

I have a daughter too and I am trying to protect her. She wants to be free, to travel, to come home alone late at night - Absolutely. And I see her vulnerability. I am trying to teach her how best to protect herself.

I know there are dangers. I am not stupid. I have also experienced some pretty nasty violence from men myself - but that isn't the point. The point is we need to be doing all we can to reduce the number of situations where rape in all its forms is possible.

How can it be out of line to point out that teaching your sons rape myths is not doing them any favours in terms of growing up to be decent, non-rapist men?

Plenty of men are brought up to think that it's fine to do whatever you can get away with as long as she doesn't kick up too much of a fuss.

Those men are responsible for many of the rapes that never get reported.

And still people raise more men to think the same way.

I'm sorry - but no-one on here is teaching their sons rape myths. That is simply stupid.

He needs to be absolutely sure - and should check with her, and should back off if he thinks there could be any doubt whatsoever. -

Sorry - is this a myth? I thought this made sense. I am advocating teaching this to boys - among other things

The point is we need to be doing all we can to reduce the number of situations where rape in all its forms is possible.

Yeah.

"Situations" cause rapes.

We can reduce rape by teaching young people (ie girls) to avoid "situations" in which rapes might spontaneously happen through no fault of anyone present.

No - rape happens because of rapists.

Not because of situations. Not because of misunderstandings.

Because of men who think they have a right to impose their penis on women (or sometimes men) who are not interested in it.

Reducing the number of rapes means dealing with the fact that far, far too many of our men have been raised with extremely dodgy (at best) attitudes to sex, consent, and women.

We change that by teaching them about proper, clear consent (no grey areas) and about making sure you are not a rapist (despite how easy it is to get away with rape.)

Anyone who reads that cake article and thinks it is a "good analogy" and is raising boys to think likewise is a rape apologist teaching boys that rape is fine as long as you can get away with it.

Don't think the article said that the persuading/guilt-tripping/repeatedly trying to persuade someone to eat cake (or have sex) until they agree to, etc behaviour was "fine", in fact it suggested that it might be that of an "obnoxious, guilt-tripping, sulky, passive-aggressive pest". It is possible to think that something is immoral and not "fine" without thinking it ought to cross the line into being a criminal matter.

That said, I would hope children would be taught a wider sexual ethics than simply being taught about what one thinks ought to be illegal. Not that I am asserting that anyone here is doing that.

I did not say that situations cause rape. You know what I said.

Surely what we ALL want is no rape.

I'm sorry - but no-one on here is teaching their sons rape myths. That is simply stupid.

This is a thread supporting an article that is basically a list of barely disguised rape myths on a parenting forum.

Anyone who is teaching their sons that consent is a grey area and that the cake analogy holds is teaching rape myths to someone who will one day have the means to rape.

We change that by teaching them about proper, clear consent - your words

• same as mine.

He needs to be absolutely sure - and should check with her, and should back off if he thinks there could be any doubt whatsoever.

You are trying to make out I am saying something I am not. We are aiming for the same thing.

If a surgeon said to you "I'd like to amputate your big toe please. I can see you've had 8 vodka martinis and are swaying around. I'm going to badger you relentlessly for an hour and a half until you say yes to make it stop."

And an hour and a half later you say yes.
And sign the damn form.
And lose your toe.

Is this consent? Would it stand up in a court case?

FFS - Most of us have not even looked at the cake analogy - those that have disputed it. The discussion has moved on.

This is ridiculous. "Raising rapists" - now it is getting silly.

Surely what we ALL want is no rape.

I think some of us want to achieve that by defining rale out of existence by means of invented "grey areas" and telling rape victims that although their rape was obnoxious and immoral, it is not a criminal matter.

Just read the comments on the cake article. Rape apologist bingo. And there is a guy who quite clearly is advocating for acquaintance rape to be completely struck from the statute books because he entered into an agreement that sex would happen when he went on the date, so if the woman goes back on her "bargain" he thinks he should be able to just take it without her consent and no one should say anything. Terrifying.

The toe analogy is different as one would assume there was a medical need for the amputation and loss of limb/life was at stake.

The surgeon gains nothing from doing the op. However despite that no surgeon would ever operate on a patient in those circs and if he did it would not go well in court if there was a complaint. The badgering would go against him - as it should.

I don't think its relevant to my question as to whether the surgeon gains or doesn't since my question was whether consent was given.
(But if it helps you let's imagine it was a private, cosmetic operation, and he stands to gain financially.)

Was consent given? Is drunken, pressured "consent" actually consent? "well, she definitely wanted it at the time, your Honour, and she was sober enough to sign her name with my help holding her pen in her hand."

We are getting no-where here.

We ALL want no rape - I said - but apparently that's not what I meant - or good enough.

I also did not read the cake thingy - picked up the discussion later.

My words were almost the same as yours Bath on the question of clear consent.

I am neither an "apologist" nor "raising rapists" - but I am practical.

I am going to make dinner now for my lovely boy and my lovely girl and I hope to God that neither is ever involved in any sort of rape. (Boys get raped too - but almost never reported by the way)

And I will do everything in my power to protect them both. Here's hoping that things improve for the next generation.