To not 'mind my own business'

[buymeabook]

Facebook one I'm afraid. Acquaintance advertising for people to sign up to her 'book exchange' scheme. You send 1 book and get 36 in return. I replied saying isn't this just a pyramid scheme, and people at the bottom won't get anything? (It works by everyone signing 6 people up, and you give a book to someone 2 steps up. So by the time you have 11 levels you are up to 60 million people needed....)

She got really shirty with me, telling me to mind my own business if I wasn't interested and not be so negative. I probably should have kept out of it, but she's normally an intelligent enough person and I'm pretty sure wouldn't want to rip anyone off, so put it down to her not really understanding.

(And yes, I am definitely being unreasonable for starting a fb thread).

Level 1 - 1 person
Level 2 - 6
Level 3 - 36
Level 4 - 216
Level 5 - 1296
Level 6 - 7776
Level 7 - 46,656
Level 8 - 279,936
Level 9 - 1679616
Level 10 - 10,077,696
Level 11 - 60,466,000
Level 12 - 362,000,000
Level 13 - over 2 billion people.

So by level 11, that would involve the entire population of England including the illiterate, non English speaking, infant, ill to participate or it would collapse. It's not really likely that a scheme like this could last longer than level 7 or 8, so that involves thousands of people at the bottom losing out within weeks.

The more successful a pyramid is (one that survives a few levels) the more people lose.

A friend of mine on Facebook sells Younique. She posted a week ago about a gift exchange which I ignored but looking again it is the secret sister gift exchange where you buy one gift for 10 dollars and get 6-36 gifts back. I'm not going to say anything though. If rather buy myself one gift that I actually wanted for 10 dollars than have 36 gifts I didn't want.

Why would anyone ever do this when you can go to a library for free. I can't imagine storing 36 books....

Yeah... my friend said she had something for DD. Then she mailed me this.

I did the math DD would get 214+ books if everyone actually mails a book. What would I even do with all those? But my main problem with it is that I'd be depending on everyone else's friends to mail my kid a book. I doubt they'd invest in another child. I'd have better luck posting on facebook "Hey, DD is learning to read. Buy some books for her please?". I wouldn't of course, but I have nice friends and if I asked they'd probably send her more than I would get from randoms receiving spam with her address.

Exactly Aussiemum, and it's the bottom two levels missing out, so about 97% don't get anything if it works as it should.

Euphemia, it's teacher friends of friends that are getting excited about this on Facebook here too, which I find rather worrying!

I just don't understand how they can think this is a lovely idea. If each book is £5 then they could potentially end up with £180 of books while only sending out one costing £5. It feels wrong because it is!!

It's worth remembering that children always need books, they grow out of them and into new ones. I've signed up for the scheme and I'd do it again in a year or two when my LO is older or for another child so that it could keep going. I think it's a brilliant idea. It's not a business and doesn't involve money exchange so I don't think it is technically a pyramid scheme. It's just a bit of fun.

Teasmum, it IS a pyramid scheme, it's not a fair thing to do as it relies on some poor sods at the bottom of the pile getting no books in return for sending one out.

It's morally questionable IMHO. Really why can't some people see that?!

A book is say £5, you send out one book worth £5 and potentially end up with 36 worth £180. Can you really not see that somewhere down the line someone is getting shafted?

Just get your child a library card and stop conning folk into buying your child some books fgs.

Yes children need books but getting into the habit of visiting the library is better.

I don't expect we'll get all 36 and I think it'd be better to reduce the number to getting 3 or 4 friends to join but there will always be people, there will always be children and there will always be books. This could go on and on and on so everyone gets something. Going to the library is good but it doesn't carry the same excitement as getting a few packages through the door with someone's carefully chosen book that is perhaps one of their child's favourites.

The point is that not everyone can get something teasmum. It's just not possible as the whole scheme relies on the bottom layers getting nothing.

Forget about it being books, think about it being £5 notes instead and see if the penny drops for you. There's a reason these schemes are illegal in some countries.

Why does there have to be a bottom layer. This sort of thing has been around in some form for decades. It's in another group I'm in as far back as January. It's perhaps not sustainable for 36 books but maybe for 9. If you have 3 kids do it 3 times, do it again when they're a year or 2 older, to make sure everybody gets something. I'm not interested in it for gaining lots of books, I'm interested in it because I think it's something fun and exciting to do. I plan to give any books we already have and perhaps one or two others to a Christmas present appeal so it isn't just my LO that benefits.

Arrrrghhhhhhh!

Give one, get one. OK, great.
Give one, get more than one. Someone else is losing out.

I really don't understand why some people can't see this!

And you know what is pissing me off most about this, the way it is all framed as something lovely to do with your children. It's deliberately playing on heartstrings (books! children! hand signed card explaining significance!), when the whole setup basically screws people over.

Did you miss the point that if the scheme works exactly as it is set up, then over 97% of people who give a book won't receive anything? 'Just a bit of fun'? What a load of rubbish, and if you can't understand why, then I really am at a loss as to how to explain it any further.

If you want to set up a book exchange make it exactly that, an exchange, not a bloody pyramid scheme. If you want to be altruistic and give books away, with nothing in return, then do so. That would be a lovely gesture. Pestering your friends and family to sign up to a scheme which is inherently unfair is not a nice thing to do.

"Why does there have to be a bottom layer."

Even if you only get 4 books rather than 36 that's still 3 more than you gave away. Where do all the extra books come from? (In any case, the way this thing is set up, it's the bottom two layers who don't get any thing.)

Teasmum, have you ever thought about selling aloe vera products? I'm looking to sign up some new sellers to my pyramid.

If it was give one, get one I'd still do it and I'll be happy if my son only gets one.

I'm not sure how the 97% is calculated but I assume it takes into account that time moves on, people have more than one child and new children are born all the time?

I haven't pestered my friends into joining, I posted a status and they asked if they could join. I don't feel I was pestered by the friend who I joined through.

Hilarious trixymalixy.

This idea was around decades ago, long before FB or even the Internet. I remember a friend of my mum's got involved and she wanted my mum to participate. My mum sometimes comes across as a bit dippy, but she can sniff out a scam from a hundred miles and said no, so the friend wrote to me (I was about ten at the time) suggesting I sent a book off and recruit some of my school friends. I showed my mum the letter and she was furious, fell out with her friend big time.

Apart from the scam angle, I can't see why anyone would want thirty six random children's books. I bet they'd all be bloody Rainbow Fairies or something else equally as crap.

In fact, I'd be happy if I got none, because I sent one of my favourite children's books to another child to enjoy. It's called not being a misery!

buymeabook, it's clearly pointless. Teasmum genuinely doesn't seem to see that she's ripping people off.

Because I've made it clear to people that they probably won't get 36 books and even a few would be a bonus and they still want to take part because they want to do it for enjoyment of it, like me. If it was about sending people £5 notes, we wouldn't be doing it.

teasmum, what has new children being born got to do with it?

Lets say there are five levels, and assume it works as the scheme says. So the numbers of people on each level are:

1
6
36
216
1296

If it stops at that point then the bottom two levels don't get anything, and the people in the first 3 levels get the 36 books.

So (1296+216)/(1+6+36+216+1296)x100% = 97.2%

No doubt you will say that it doesn't stop at level 5. OK then, it carries on. By the time you reach 10 levels, there are 60 million people in the bottom level, none of who have got anything. For them to receive their books, they need another 2 levels, which is 2.5 billion people. Add one more level and it's more than the earth's population. (The percentage in the bottom two levels is about the same, 97%, even with increased numbers of levels).

This is why pyramid schemes don't work. There is no endless supply of new people joining, but with each extra level, you have exponentially more numbers needed.

Do you really not see that even if you only got a few, that still means someone doesn't get anything? You are scamming your friends, (and potentially their friends etc), whether you mean to or not. Please, please, tell me you're not another teacher.

If you want to share your love of books and give a kid a present then go on and do it. You don't need a stupid scheme like this to do so.

trixymalixy, I think you're right. It's amazing how people can persuade themselves of all sorts.

It's actually quite terrifying that because it's books for children, the warm fuzzy feeling seems to cloud all rational thought about the intrinsic unfairness of the whole setup.