To dislike it when people take too much credit for their excellent life choices

[colourdilemma]

And are judgemental of those whose don't come up to scratch by their standards?

I don't think there are actually many of us who can claim huge credit for things that have gone well. More, I think those who are okay, settled, financially stable should be thanking their lucky stars that they had any of the flowing leg ups that made them able to make choices in life that worked out well:

1. parents who valued education
   
2. living in an area the had good schools
   
3. having parents who were emotionally stable enough to give them confidence and support
   
4. having a parentsl household income in childhood/early adulthood that let them take risks and or stay in education
   
5. having good enough physical and mental health to get through school/training/education
   
6. having academic/emotional ability and aptitudes for so called "good" jobs
   
7. meeting the right friends/partners
   
8. not having anything go disastrously wrong job wise/financially
   
9. having a crystal ball
   
10. a lot of luck
    
    I could go on. Personally, I have a degree, financial security, a stable family now and a job that I can earn well in. But if I track my "success" back I would be better to describe it as a very precariously balanced, sometimes nearly disastrous series of part chosen, part chose me events. Isn't everyone pretty much the same?
    
    This strikes me as why the tax credits debate is so horrible and why I dislike the phrase "hard working families" so very much.
    
    And please forgive me if describing my position in the way I have sounds smug in any way; I do not remotely feel like that. I have long term mental health issues, my parents are a mess and I struggle hugely with parenting my three kids. So how b**y unfair is it that I seem to get away with it scot free because of some earning potential and financial independence?
    
    Somebody famous like Newton once said "I am standing on the shoulders of giants" about the research and scientists that went before him and, even without getting into what a screwed up way this society chooses to judge success, I think anyone who has this "success" should think carefully about where it came from. Hard work, absolutely, but others work hard and don't enjoy the fruits so much.

[HelenaDove]

It depends what those suggestions are Midnite. Jamie Olivers suggestion that ppl should go herb picking in their local park is hardly going to help a low income couple who are struggling to feed DC.

And someone once told me that i should cut all my hair off if i ever lost my hot water as that would make it easier to rinse.

Its worth remembering that some "suggestions" are just trolling.

[WhatifIdid]

I want to know what southeastastra thinks is the secret to life, the universe and everything 'how the system works' as explained to her by mn? (third post down)

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

For some people luck has just replaced God as a reason for them not to take responsibility for their own actions.

For others, it's been a long hard struggle to nowhere.

I like the spectrum idea up there but I see it more as a matrix of internal and external factors. You minimise either axis at your own peril.

[BlackeyedSusan]

yanbu.

and some people have not been taught how to work hard, or have not had the support, or the health, or the emotional stability, or do work hard but it all goes pear shaped anyway (redundancy can hit anyone and wipe out all savings for example) . A lot can be traced back to the parenting of ones' parents' parents. struggles are passed down the generations. My dad had a shit upbringing and left me with issues. hopefully I am passing less of those onto the children.

[Philoslothy]

My approach has always been, if you fuck up - look where you went wrong, own up and try and fix it.

If things go well, look for where you went right and be grateful that luck allowed your hard work/ ability to pay off.

[manicinsomniac]

Absolutely, YANBU

I'm a single mum of 3 children by 2 different men. The first father I had a short and abusive relationship with (hence DD1), then years later he raped me (DD2) and years after that I got ridiculously drunk/high and slept with someone I can't even remember (DD3). I have a collection of mental illnesses (anorexia, mild bipolar, OCD, maybe BPD) and no nearby family support. Obviously I don't get any maintenance.

But I have never had to claim tax credits or any kind of benefit except CB. Because I have been LUCKY

Lucky that I am intelligent and had intelligent, well educated parents who were able to give me a stable, loving and enriching childhood.

Lucky that I was at one of the best universities in the UK when I got pregnant with DD1 and was supported by family, friends and the university to stay there.

Lucky that I knew I was going to be a single parent from day 1 so was able to plan and train for a career that would make me a lot of money and give me free childcare (independent school teacher)

Lucky that the school I am in has been nothing but 100% supportive of me from the day I started working there - they give me subsidised housing in return for extra hours. they allow me to have my children with me whenever and wherever I need them and will keep them in sick bay for me if they are ill.

Lucky that I didn't even know what Income Support was when I got pregnant and didn't know it was possible to be a single mum without working full time. I was very naïve but it worked in my favour because now it can't be taken away from me.

Lucky that I have amazing friends and colleagues who I can rely on for anything if I need to.

I can't take credit for any of those things. Nothing but good fortune separates me from struggling single mothers on precarious benefits with no support and poor mental health.

[SummerNights1986]

MN (and the political left in general) try to argue the very fatalistic perspective; that everyone sits at the 'luck only' end of the spectrum and there is nothing anyone could have done to help themselves, it was all pre-determined from the moment they were born. I do understand why this is a seductive thesis; it absolves the individual from personal responsibility. It distracts from the uncomfortable reality that for most people, there are different choices that they could have made that would have dramatically improved their outcomes

This, completely.

I agree that there is a spectrum and that some will have got where they have almost purely from luck/life chances/whatever.

Some will have had the worst starts, no opportunities and faced shit luck at every turn, and still managed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Most are inbetween. But the whole luck perspective will be much more popular for the reasons the pp said.

[PiperChapstick]

YANBU. I know many people like this. My DSis is a good example - she had her DD1 at 17, and now 18 years later lives in a nice house with 2 more kids, nice things, nice holidays and plenty of days out etc. She often uses this as a reason as to why teenage pregnancy is not a bad thing and that she's a good example of how you can have just as good a life as those who have kids in their 20s. What she fails to mention is that when she was pregnant at aged 17 she met a 27yo (who would go on to become her DH) who ran a very successful business seeing profits of £100k a year and as a result she's never worked a day in her life.

She also fails to mention to DM looked after her DD1 3 days & nights a week until she was in school so DSis could go up the town and live the life of a "normal young person"

Now please don't take this as a criticism to teenage mums - it's absolutely not. But I hate that she presents herself as the poster child of a successful teen mum when actually she had a hell of a lot more than most teen mums have, in the form of support and money, and that she lived the party lifestyle that most teen mums never get a sniff at as they sacrificed that to raise their child.

Sorry, rant over

[CarlaJones]

YANBU

[Pico2]

YANBU in my case. But I know people who have really shitty backgrounds, who have worked incredibly hard to get where they are and ensure that their own children don't experience the same. For them, luck hasn't got them where they are, except perhaps for giving them the determination to change their circumstances.

[GrayJane]

I had a disastrous and tragic childhood with not one of the 10 points you listed. Luckily for me, my mother's alcoholic BF kicked me out of that freezing council house in that ugly town just after my 17th birthday. I left home with one bin liner of ill-fitting clothes and not a single penny. Fast forward 23 years and I'm an educated, professional with six figure salary, a small business on the side, a couple of languages under my belt and living a very international and 'free' life. There was no luck involved at all. I'm still waiting for that to come. I've had hardly any breaks. On the contrary, I've had a lot of knock-backs and push-downs, not to mention some serious jealously from those around me - especially my family who cannot fathom how I did so well from nothing. In fact they are so confused that they have completely cut me off. I'm sick of people telling me how lucky I am.

[Senpai]

Depends. Are these people saying they worked hard in a way to sneer on others less fortunate, or because they are genuinely proud of their accomplishment?

As long as you're not dismissing someone for the sake of knocking them down a peg to feel better about yourself, and seeing it as more of a social observation then yanbu.

[StrawberryTeaLeaf]

YANBU

[StrawberryTeaLeaf]

Gray do you credit your evident ability to good fortune? Or to something else?

[colourdilemma]

Blimey, I've never had so many yanbu responses to a post. Just to be clear, I'm not in any way saying that achievements come without hard work. Or that you need all ten of those points to get anywhere. Just that hard work alone doesn't mean you'll get there and perhaps acknowledging leg ups, even the ability to survive knocks or the guts to take risks might help when considering how supportive to be of everyone.
I am firmly of the opinion that "everyone that can, will". And that as a society we should be trying to mitigate all of the disadvantages we possibly can, whilst never giving the opinion that deliberately doing nothing to help yourself (that you are able to) is not an option.
I think (to be political) that the current government has gone too far in crediting people for "good" choices and blaming them for "bad" ones.
Personally, I celebrate achievemebt in a "that was exciting" "that will help us" way rather than "look how well I did" way.

[colourdilemma]

Senpai, I don't sneer at others achievements, but I do try to put them into context otherwise it's easy to get into a pattern of "all achievements are great but some are greater than others".
My friend has just run a marathon. I'm excited for her and have hugely congrstulated her for what has been months of hard work. I also know that she's had advantages that got her there; supportive family, time to train, a personality that pushes her on, finances to pay for shoes, treatment for injuries, etc. another friend is running her own marathon; she cares for a disabled child and the rest of her family and has very little glamour in her life. She hasn't chosen to do it and won't get a medal or huge public congrats. She does it without bitterness and a considerable amount of joy. And even she would acknowledge the "leg ups" of personality and upbringing that allow her to do it. Weirdly, when she does, I won't have it and congratulate her! I don't really understand my response to these things except that I feel that some achievements get loads of accolade anyway so I feel less as if I need to join in. And generally, how on earth would I know how easy or hard anything is for anyone?

[greenfolder]

Yanbu at all. At 47 I look at where myself and friends have got from a poorish 1980s education and the usual range of parents. None of us went to university. We range from qualified accountants to teaching assistants in term of pay. But in reality those who seem set fair for the next bit of our lives are those that had the luck to find their life partner young and stick together. We are all intelligent women so there are a few divorces( none stayed in unhappy marriages). Those who stayed together and pooled resources are now paying off mortgages and saving for retirement.

[lighteningirl]

I think there is a spectrum. I had none of those advantages but just kept trying kept picking myself up and I am finally now doing comfortably. Every day I am thankful for how lucky I am but I also know that hard work and effort have maximised my 'luck'. Yabu to assume every one like me is crowing about 'our' good luck/sneering at others.

[SilverDragonfly1]

Yanbu. I'll just leave my post from the tax credits thread here.

'There are few things more depressing than people who have gone through hard times, are now well off and yet have absolutely no empathy for people who are in the position they once were.

Do people like this not understand the concept of luck? You had hard times, suffered etc but ultimately YOU WERE LUCKY! You weren't struck down with a disability that made working impossible. You may have worked hard to get good qualifications, but first you had to be lucky enough to access a course and to be able to finance it, perhaps with free tuition fees and student grants that no longer exist. Not to mention lucky enough to have the degree of intelligence needed to succeed in your studies.

You may have a high powered, well paid job now, but that is because you were lucky enough to see the advert at the right time and get to the interview. Lucky enough to have the characteristics valued by your company that put you in line for promotion. How many equally or more deserving people didn't see the advert because they had flu that week, or didn't apply because they would never be able to afford the commuting costs? Were passed over for promotion because they had a chronic illness or caring responsibilities which meant they were perceived as less able?

The fact is, however hard you have worked, however many hours you've worked and however many sacrifices you have made, there is a massive element of pure chance in your success, for which you can claim no credit whatsoever. Other people don't get these chances and so are not wealthy and secure, regardless of how clever, hardworking or ambitious they are.

So a little bit of humility and gratitude is in order, please.'

[areyoubeingserviced]

Totally agree
I believe many of the opportunities I have had have been down to sheer luck.
In fact, I hold a senior position, simply because the person who had previously had the position fell ill and could not cope with the job. She had been hardworking, accomplished etc , but is unable to work due to ill health
So yes, there is an element of 'luck' when one is successful

[areyoubeingserviced]

Totally agree silver

[SlipperyJack]

YANBU. There are a few who may have achieved success through sheer hard graft, but there are many more who got there through good fortune.

I am comparatively successful in my life, and I recognize that this is mostly down to having an upbringing of unimaginable privilege (not money, but education, opportunities, stability etc). It's as much of an inheritance as diamonds. I'm not a very dynamic/entrepreneurial/confident person, and I have no doubt that without all the benefits of my background, I'd have sunk.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Well it's a mixture isn't it OP?

Of course there is chance/luck about where one is born etc. I'm currently in a country that makes most if the people who moan about 'bad luck' in the UK look frankly stupid! The good luck of being born on the UK versus here is huge and unquestionable ( and undeserved).

However, capitalising on good luck, is another issue entirely. Some people simply do not do so. And those that do so don't owe all their success simply to 'luck'.

[TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief]

It's both. Most people can't get by just by luck.
You're lucky if you and your family have health and your family is supportive but a lot is gained from hard work. In fact I'd say the rest of it is gained from hard work.
I'm not talking about well off and connected people but just the average person.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

Yabu

Far too simplistic view, as a few posts have outlined.