To dislike it when people take too much credit for their excellent life choices

[colourdilemma]

And are judgemental of those whose don't come up to scratch by their standards?

I don't think there are actually many of us who can claim huge credit for things that have gone well. More, I think those who are okay, settled, financially stable should be thanking their lucky stars that they had any of the flowing leg ups that made them able to make choices in life that worked out well:

1. parents who valued education
   
2. living in an area the had good schools
   
3. having parents who were emotionally stable enough to give them confidence and support
   
4. having a parentsl household income in childhood/early adulthood that let them take risks and or stay in education
   
5. having good enough physical and mental health to get through school/training/education
   
6. having academic/emotional ability and aptitudes for so called "good" jobs
   
7. meeting the right friends/partners
   
8. not having anything go disastrously wrong job wise/financially
   
9. having a crystal ball
   
10. a lot of luck
    
    I could go on. Personally, I have a degree, financial security, a stable family now and a job that I can earn well in. But if I track my "success" back I would be better to describe it as a very precariously balanced, sometimes nearly disastrous series of part chosen, part chose me events. Isn't everyone pretty much the same?
    
    This strikes me as why the tax credits debate is so horrible and why I dislike the phrase "hard working families" so very much.
    
    And please forgive me if describing my position in the way I have sounds smug in any way; I do not remotely feel like that. I have long term mental health issues, my parents are a mess and I struggle hugely with parenting my three kids. So how b**y unfair is it that I seem to get away with it scot free because of some earning potential and financial independence?
    
    Somebody famous like Newton once said "I am standing on the shoulders of giants" about the research and scientists that went before him and, even without getting into what a screwed up way this society chooses to judge success, I think anyone who has this "success" should think carefully about where it came from. Hard work, absolutely, but others work hard and don't enjoy the fruits so much.

[zeezeek]

I come from an immensely privileged background - think minor aristocracy and big draughty country estates. I grew up in an idyllic part of the world with none of the financial worries that children in my neighbourhood were suffering at that time. My brother and I were educated at prominent boarding schools alongside other members of minor (and not so minor) aristocracy.

My hobby was dinghy sailing and, as my parents were well off enough to pay for the best instructors, I was very successful and at 16 well on my way to being in the Olympic team. I was also a keen diver and, along with my equally privileged boyfriend planned we spent our gap year sailing and diving in the Caribbean.

I was also lucky enough to be academic and was accepted for a science degree at Oxford. I went there thinking that it would be a pleasant way of spending 3 years of my life before the hard slog towards the Olympic gold started in earnest.

My boyfriend proposed to me on my 19th birthday. 3 weeks later he had killed himself.

I dealt with it by working hard at my degree and training hard. I had no help or support from my family, who seemed to see his death as some kind of insult to them. I was banned from discussing or mentioning it at home and he was effectively wiped out of my life.

Due to me working hard I got a 1st and was offered a chance to continue studying for a PhD with a new academic who had just moved to the UK from Sweden. He was much older than me, divorced with children who all lived in Sweden and were not that much younger than me and in the middle of a messy break-up from a brief relationship he'd had when he first arrived. I didn't think I would love anyone again, so it was a surprise when I did, with him. And he with me.

I continued to sail and my ultimate goal in life was still the Olympic gold.

Then I was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and ended up losing part of a leg. I carried on with my PhD, I accepted my boyfriend's marriage proposal and we ran away to Vegas to marry. But my dreams of OLympic gold were over. Suddenly, irreversibly, over. I know I could have continued, maybe paralympics, but for me - it was over the day I lost my leg.

Instead I concentrated on my academic career. I'd been warned that I would probably not be able to have children and that there was a high chance that I would have long lasting medical problems from the cancer treatment - possibly even another cancer.

Over 25 years on I am successful. I am happily married with 2 DD and a good career. I still sail, but not competitively, but don't dive anymore. I was lucky not to have long term health problems from my cancer, but the chances of developing a new primary remains higher than average.

We are financially stable - due to my Trust fund from my grandparents; academia is not well paid so our lifestyle is due to the luck of others. Not their hard work as my grandparents lived a fairly idle life.

My children are happy and intelligent. They have stable family life with 2 parents and an extended family who love them. They attend a good, local state school and we haven't yet decided whether we will send them to the local comp or private. Either way, they are in charge of their destiny the same way as we were and up to the same point as we were.

The life I am living is not the one I thought I would. I never got that Olympic gold and my first love killed himself.

I'm not lucky or unlucky - a mixture of both.

I've worked moderately hard - there is more that I could have achieved in my life, but I made the choice not to pursue them.

My family background has protected me from the dire financial circumstances that others find themselves in - but that does not make me better than them, only more privileged....but then, cancer is a great leveller.

[DeoGratias]

Most of all I would not want any mumsnetters to give up. If you decide there in point in aiming for things because you are unlucky and risks are not worth taking and you will fail or "people like you" cannot achieve X or you believe only the people who say you don't have XYZ in your life because of circumstances then you do yourself a disservice. Look at the immigrants around you in particularly one or two of whom are posting on the thread. Yes they might have had stable families but they came from nothing and made things happen. Let women more often seek to be the master of their own fate.

Upbringing is a key aspect too as are your genes. However even a bad start can be the impetous to work hard and do well whereas a molly coddled start can lead to some (not all) children taking life for granted and not doing very well as they don't have the ever present fear of poverty to scare them into getting on with things.

Lucy Kellaway writing in today's FT writes about how divorce after 2 or 3 decades can make people do so much better - suddenly you have that obligation again to earn a lot, seize every opportunity etc.

[colourdilemma]

I guess the difference for me in the reason for striving for things, which I have done and do, is that I know that hard work is required in all but a minute, irrelevant number of cases to get anywhere. It's just that I don't believe not working hard should be used as a reason why some are worse off. Without some advantages (not all ten of my op points for everyone, of course, and I certainly can't claim emotionally stable parents) and sheer bloody mindedness is a trait that some have and some don't, the hard work won't get you anywhere. And hard work that brings rewards is hugely satisfying; when it doesn't, not so much. I genuinely believe that being able to work hard is a quality that comes from somewhere, some are fighting to keep the advantages they have and some to get away from their background.

I guess humility is the key for me.

[Whatthefoxgoingon]

dodo but how do you know that they would've kept the house, then given it to you in its entirety? What about inheritance tax?

If my parents leave me all their assets, I will be wealthy (millions). But I cannot take any of it for granted, it's not my money and there is no guarantee of any of it!

I could also get hit by a truck tomorrow.

[SantasLittleMonkeyButler]

OP, do you not think there is any truth in the saying 'the harder you work, the luckier you get'?

This is what I think to that statement.

[howabout]

Sarah does that make me just plain reckless in marrying a mate knowing he had a deteriorating health condition? Do I get demerits for my unwise choice or plus points for the fact that I can "afford" him and our 3 dc anyway?

[dodobookends]

YANBU. My parents early in their marriage had an unexpected opportunity to buy a large house (it was split into flats and they were living in one of them). They had enough for the deposit, but had been saving for a car and used the money for that instead.

If they'd bought that house I would now be a millionaire several times over.

[HelenaDove]

You are twisting what i said. Probably to try and deflect from your victim blaming.

[DaddyPigIsMyParentingGuru]

Some women might not have had a positive male in their lives when they were growing up or seen how a good relationship works, that may mean they have little or no ability to filter their prospective mates for duds.

[SarahSavesTheDay]

Yeah Sarah Im sure many women will take your sage advice and are busy polishing their crystal balls as i type.

Helena I feel pretty sorry for you if you feel that women have little or no ability to filter their prospective mates for duds.

[HelenaDove]

Yeah Sarah Im sure many women will take your sage advice and are busy polishing their crystal balls as i type.

Oh and lighninggirl You did sneer at me when i brought up poor housing on a thread which i did because costs to the NHS were brought up.

You told me it was a boring way to kill a thread.

[PanicNotAtTheDisco]

The problem I have with the almost pious 'we all make choices' script is that you have got to be fucking deluded if you think all choices are free, honest, real choices.

I took an overdose once. Technically I chose to do that, physically took the overdose. It was my 'choice'. I would argue it wasn't really a true choice at all, in fact in the weeks up to then I felt like I had no other choice. I was in an abusive relationship and unravelling at the speed of light with no family or other support.

There are loads, and loads, and LOADS, of similar 'choices' - most a lot more mundane and dull, that led to that critical point for me.

If a person has had a childhood with abuse or boring old neglect, or has other unresolved trauma in their past - they aren't making choices from a from an informed and consenting place.

[ShortandSweeter]

And it depends on one's definition of success. If you have an aim of running a marathon in under 4 hours, a lottery win won't help you much.

[bakingaddict]

It's not about luck but opportunities...some people are gifted more opportunity than others by being born into a stable family or privately educated i'm in no way denying that but it's how you use those opportunities that determines success.

I think most successful people have the canny ability to grasp opportunities or take risks that work favourably for them which isn't solely luck. You can't be successful by luck alone unless you win the lottery and neither will just hard work alone make you successful therefore the over-riding element of success has got to be personal ingenuity

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

I don't know. DH and I have friends who have completely squandered all the good cards life as baby boomers has dealt them, by being unbelievably profligate with money. We are all mid fifties on decent salaries but they are shocked that DH and I are mortgage and debt free. They would be even more shocked if we ever let on about our savings and investments.

Thing is, that they jibed us about our tight fisted two weeks camping in France, when they were taking their kids for a fortnight at Disney World. And about our lack of designer gear, and even cooking instead of eating out half the week.

They are actually nice people and it is horrible to think of them drudging in jobs they have grown to hate when we are planning an early retirement.

[ShortandSweeter]

Gary Player said, 'the harder I practice, the luckier I get'.

Clearly luck has a part in success, but vision and hard work are at least equal contributors.

[TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief]

I come from an immigrant community. Children and grandchildren of immigrants who came to this country with nothing.
Ok so they were lucky in that they were able to come to this country but as far as I know, their children had the same access to education as anyone else.
Those children are now doctors, accountants, dentists, teachers, restaurant owners etc
Yes they had supportive parents but what they achieved was down to hard work too.
They didn't have to work hard. They could've just found menial work or not worked at all.
I know people who took second jobs as taxi drivers or pizza deliverers when things got tough. It might be luck that they could get a job but even after knock backs they persevered and would have done anything and everything to achieve.

Health and support are the two main things that you have to be lucky with. I don't know anyone who worked really hard but achieved nothing because of bad luck.

[Godstopper]

A combination of the two, in most cases.

I am surrounded by academic people, and am frequently baffled that the privately educated (and we're talking a large percentage at the best boarding schools in the U.K), wealthy, white, men, often put their success down to their own hard work. Not really. They were given the resources to play the game and 'talk the talk' right from the start. Of course, they are academically bright, but the failure to acknowledge the huge importance that their upbringing played is most peculiar.

Me: Foster care, alcoholic violent parents, three years of sexual abuse by neighbor resulting in a court case at 16, deaf, in mainstream high school with no special needs provision and a poor pass rate (the whole educational authority on the Island is now in special measures).

I now have the same level of academic success as my peers, but it's taken me quite a bit longer. I've a massive case of 'imposter syndrome', and I have had to work a damn sight harder and longer than the aforementioned group to get here.

Yet say that, and sometimes you are accused of bitterness or jealousy. It's not that: it's the inability of some to see that it's not as easy as simply working hard.

My sister still lives at 'home', in a council house. Has never had a job in her thirties, relies on benefits, and has one child with fairly complex special needs. She is the target of 'Daily Mail' readers who scream 'get a job': but it is not that simple - this is an area where the only jobs tend to be in the tourist trade (during the season) or at a supermarket (nothing wrong with that, but would leave her unable to care for my nephew, and effectively worse off). She has plans to take an access course to get into the OU in a year or two, so she is trying. But given her background, it's bloody damn hard. There is a very real poverty trap on the Island, and I was fortunate enough to be able to study my way out.

Not denying the role of personal responsibility, but it is a lot more nuanced and complicated than the Daily Mail brigade would have you suggest.

[iamanintrovert]

Both the good and bad things in my life are very definitely closely related to choices I've made.

[OurBlanche]

Gruffalo plenty of poor children are intelligent, but without access to books, the internet etc at home etc? If you are unfortunate enough to have the combination of poverty with parents who are not well educated or who don't have the work ethic then your chances are not as good as they could be? As was the case with DH and myself. I was trying to say 'don't be so patronising' without actually saying it, to be honest.

We were born pre-internet, it only arrived when we were already adult, home owning etc. It is not essential, even in our 1st world lives. We both also have a number of family members who have never worked, they have never been lucky enough to get a job, though their siblings and friends have!

My chances were, on paper, utterly shite, if your thoughts are correct, as were DHs. But that has never defined or restricted us. So which bit of our current lifestyle was down to luck? Or am I supposed to think I was lucky enough to be born abnormal, when compared to my class, my position in society?

Pah! That comes back to both class snobbery and a cosmic capriciousness that I don't believe in.

But yes, the harder you work the luckier you get does it for me!

[Whatthefoxgoingon]

Some people have the wherewithal to either overcome poor luck, or run with good luck, and some people just don't. The first is obviously much harder to do than the latter, but not impossible. Life is hideously unfair from the day we are born. People born and living in the uk have a great many advantages over those born poor in the third world. I don't think anyone would deny that. But we can't have a totally level playing field anywhere: even if it's just the pure luck of sustained good health, there will be people with more and less advantages than you, always. We have to play the hands we are dealt, we have no choice.

[sparechange]

This 'oh it is all down to luck' mentality smacks somewhat of the explanation given by the families of honor killing victims for why they claim no responsibility for the deaths. 'Oh, it was all god's will'

There IS such thing as fecklessness, and there IS such thing as making a conscious decision to go down a good or bad path. The idea that you are pre-allocated a personality type that consigns you to a life that comes to you regardless of the choices you make is the sort of nonsense only usually rears its head with swivel-eyed religious types.

[SarahSavesTheDay]

I agree that there is an element of luck in most success stories.

Quite separately, I think there is very little luck involved in building a stable, two-parent home that has no more than two children, and this is IMO the greatest mitigation against poverty that exists.

You might get very unlucky in that your spouse dies or suddenly becomes abusive or an addict, but you can control for the latter two by taking your time in selecting your mate.

[Philoslothy]

OP, do you not think there is any truth in the saying 'the harder you work, the luckier you get'?

I agree that for me personally the harder I work the luckier I have got. Although right now I do very little and the luck keeps on coming. However lots of people work far harder than me and have less in all sorts of ways. So the statement can work for the individual but you can't compare different people.