To dislike it when people take too much credit for their excellent life choices

[colourdilemma]

And are judgemental of those whose don't come up to scratch by their standards?

I don't think there are actually many of us who can claim huge credit for things that have gone well. More, I think those who are okay, settled, financially stable should be thanking their lucky stars that they had any of the flowing leg ups that made them able to make choices in life that worked out well:

1. parents who valued education
   
2. living in an area the had good schools
   
3. having parents who were emotionally stable enough to give them confidence and support
   
4. having a parentsl household income in childhood/early adulthood that let them take risks and or stay in education
   
5. having good enough physical and mental health to get through school/training/education
   
6. having academic/emotional ability and aptitudes for so called "good" jobs
   
7. meeting the right friends/partners
   
8. not having anything go disastrously wrong job wise/financially
   
9. having a crystal ball
   
10. a lot of luck
    
    I could go on. Personally, I have a degree, financial security, a stable family now and a job that I can earn well in. But if I track my "success" back I would be better to describe it as a very precariously balanced, sometimes nearly disastrous series of part chosen, part chose me events. Isn't everyone pretty much the same?
    
    This strikes me as why the tax credits debate is so horrible and why I dislike the phrase "hard working families" so very much.
    
    And please forgive me if describing my position in the way I have sounds smug in any way; I do not remotely feel like that. I have long term mental health issues, my parents are a mess and I struggle hugely with parenting my three kids. So how b**y unfair is it that I seem to get away with it scot free because of some earning potential and financial independence?
    
    Somebody famous like Newton once said "I am standing on the shoulders of giants" about the research and scientists that went before him and, even without getting into what a screwed up way this society chooses to judge success, I think anyone who has this "success" should think carefully about where it came from. Hard work, absolutely, but others work hard and don't enjoy the fruits so much.

[guffaux]

colour - wholeheartedly agree - I've been lucky, made poor choices, good choices, been led into decisions, I've been poor and had times I've had money to spare, am now relatively secure, but I think its mostly through chance, good luck, and the Grace of God (ie unearned, and not deserving)

I feel so desperately sorry for people who dont have the benefits I've enjoyed - free adult, (degree and post grad)education, low house prices, welfare, grants when needed (without social opprobrium,) the benefits gained from others fighting for equality. I know others , some in the same job as me, without the security in life that being born at the right time has given me. (they have student loans and no chance of buying a house for example),

My DB who has had the same leg-ups, sees his success as having been earned through his own wisdom and making good choices, I see my status in life as luck, he sees his as earned.

Possibly the truth of both our lives is somewhere in between, but I still feel its been pure chance.

ps - I hope I'm not smug - I see social injustice and try to use my time and resources to address what I can, though I dont feel I ever do enough.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

YANBU.

Here's the whole comic story of passmethecrisps picture. It's worth reading.

The Wireless "On A Plate: A Short Story about Privilege"

[Fairenuff]

I disagree with:

2) living in an area the had good schools
3) having parents who were emotionally stable enough to give them confidence and support
4) having a parents household income in childhood/early adulthood that let them take risks and or stay in education
7) meeting the right friends/partners
9) having a crystal ball

and

10) a lot of luck

I did not live in an area that had good schools. My parents did not give confidence and support or financial support. We all meet lots of different people and it's up to us to pick appropriate friends/partners. No-one has a crystal ball and luck has very little to do with anything, in my experience.

[Karoleann]

I think it depends....

DH went to a crappy school, abusive father, parents didn't help, lived in a ex-mining village, he was poor - yet he worked really hard at school, managed to get to a good university and is now successful.

I think there are a percentage of people who could do a lot more to pull themselves out of poverty and benefits but just don't.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

Ok yabu in my case.

I was forced to leave school when just turning 16 and it's my sheer determination and my personal choices that got me a good education and a good job. I didn't have 1-4 on your list. 5 was and is variable.
I have a great marraige but I know I've stuck with it at points other friends ended theirs in order to get here.

I'm totally accepting of your view as I completely understand the complex factors involved: my personality and altitudes have made me able to do what I did and others don't have those. But it's more than luck. I can identify 10,20, 100 points in my life where making a different choice would have resulted in disaster. But I made the choices mostly. Not always luck sometimes my choice.

I think what I'm saying is that by and large you are probably right but it also requires people to internalise their locus of control in order to achieve. Some of us can do that by nature. Some need much much more support. Don't do down the achievements of those who can and don't critisise those who can't.

[honkinghaddock]

Having the ability to work hard and make the best choices is also down to luck.

[Polgara25]

On a mass, generalisation level YANBU.

However, I would not suggest that you say to people in real life that their lifestyle is down to 'luck' unless you know that for sure. I had:

6) having academic/emotional ability and aptitudes for so called "good" jobs

That's it. What I have, is down to me.

[Philoslothy]

I was raised in a crappy, abusive and criminal home and have managed to create a good life for my family. I have worked hard (on and off tbh) but it was luck that turned that hard luck into success. I know lots of people who work harder than me or are smarter than me that have less than me in all sorts of ways.

[RJnomaaaaaargh]

I've also had to take a lot of risks other people wouldn't have taken.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

I had 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 10. I recognise I am very privileged.

My DC are having 1, 2,3, 4. The rest is out of my hands, and down to them. And luck.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

Oh, and not having any of the privileges listed in the OP does not stop you having a successful life - it just makes it more difficult. And probably means you are luckier.

Not everyone has the mental/physical health, brains, academic ability or determination to drag themselves out of a disadvantaged start to life. Although some do.

[MidniteScribbler]

I think that things can also go the other way. People who blame their circumstances on various aspects of their life without making any attempts to change their situation. We see it all the time on MN alone, someone comes on, asks for suggestions, then comes up with a million reasons why they can't do that. There comes a point where personal responsibility needs to come in to things.

[Youarentkiddingme]

Yanbu. I said similar on a thread earlier - that those who go on about their high paying jobs probably don't mention their parents funded uni for example. Even if someone on the same course got the same high paying job if they self funded uni they have to pay off the debt. So the staring points are already different and will affect things like savings, home etc.

[Philoslothy]

I didn't have 1-4, IMO that just shows that I have been luckier than most from my late teens onwards.

[hollieberrie]

Yanbu. I feel like i've really learned this in the last 18 months. I've had 2 tragic events happen and have really really struggled to get through it. And i am lucky enough to have nice friends and no money worries.

I totally can see how people become addicts / commit suicide / give up on life. I nearly did and i have many advantages that others dont. Its left me with a new attitude - less judgey and more of a "but there for the grace of God" type thing (even though i dont believe in God).

[frikadela01]

Yanbu op. Of your list I had only good health and academic ability and have done ok for my self so far... yes I be leave I worked bloody hard but other factors that I'm sure I'll never identify (right place right time etc) have allowed me to get to where I am. Most of the people I grew up with are long term unemployed for various reasons (ill health, poor choices, poor home life/ abuse) and Im so thankful none of this has befallen me (yet) and this makes me feel very very lucky.

[ssd]

op, thank you.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I think you are generalising to a point that negates people's experiences just as the opposite - if only they had worked a bit harder- refrain does.
Yes in some ways I was lucky but it didn't feel that way when my DM died of cancer in my teens. DH is from rural North Africa and perhaps he is lucky that only 2 of his siblings died as children?

The answer is probably a lot more nuanced on individual levels so generalisations in either direction don't really fit. To remove all personal responsibility from the outcome doesn't always work but neither does attributing it all to personal responsibility.

[ManorGreyhound]

Look, in reality, there exists a spectrum of reasons for success with 'accident of birth' at one end and 'solely due to my own endeavours' at the other.

The overwhelming majority of individuals sit somewhere in the grey area between those two points, i.e. their success (or otherwise) is partly down to luck, and partly down to hard work.

What frustrates me is the extent to which MN (and the political left in general) try to argue the very fatalistic perspective; that everyone sits at the 'luck only' end of the spectrum and there is nothing anyone could have done to help themselves, it was all pre-determined from the moment they were born.

I do understand why this is a seductive thesis; it absolves the individual from personal responsibility. It distracts from the uncomfortable reality that for most people, there are different choices that they could have made that would have dramatically improved their outcomes.

[ShadowsCollideIsSurroundedByAd]

YANBU. So much in life is down to luck. My Dad, for example. He's one of the most intelligent people I know. He's absolutely razor sharp, so smart and driven. But, his parents died within a year of each other, when he was in his late teens. His older siblings were already in university. His youngest siblings were still in primary school. So it was decided that my Dad and the siblings around his age would drop out of education and work to provide for the younger ones. Had my Dad had the opportunity to go to University, I don't doubt that he could have accomplished amazing things. As it was, he's worked his arse off his whole life for modest success. So pure bad luck.

DP was made leave education at 16 by his Mum. Again, amazingly intelligent, almost savant like when it comes to tech, physics, maths. He now has an amazing job, and yes, he absolutely works his arse off, but there was definitely some luck involved there too. My Dad put him in touch with someone who needed his skills, and that directly led to DP gaining the experience he needed to have the brilliant career he has now.

DP and I bumbled along for years. I fell into an amazing career in my early twenties. Then it went to shite when the industry suffered during the recession. I spent a few years doing crappy jobs, then recently was amazingly lucky and got a second chance, and now am building a career in a fascinating, challenging industry.

DP and I have worked our arses off, but it would be completely dishonest to say that pure luck didn't play a huge part in our lives.

Yes, a willingness to work hard is a factor. But so is opportunity, luck, having parents who encourage ambition and hard work. We have a lovely life now, and yes, some of it is due to hard work. It's equally due to pure luck. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or deluding themselves. All the intelligence, ambition, and work ethic in the world are no good if you don't have the opportunity to use them.

[fakenamefornow]

I remember I saw a play once that the world changed into a true meritocracy with real equality of opportunity. In the play it was a nightmarish vision of the future. Everything that people did was entirely their own doing so lots of smug people looking down on others less successful and everybody knew how intelligent others were. No hiding behind luck or privilege. Quite interesting.

[fly55]

YANBU. I've had a lot of bad luck in my life, I lacked basically everything in your list and for a long time was stuck on benefits as a single mum. I'd been with the wrong partner since my teens, had the insight to leave him but never had the luck of meeting the right partner. Then one day I met DH who has been a bedrock of support and also had the right background/income to pull me out of that situation. It only took that one thing on the list to turn my life around, but if I hadn't met him I would still be on benefits on a crappy estate right now. I know I'm very lucky, I still have ill health and a poor background behind me, but it's amazing how different I feel knowing I have the financial and emotional security to take risks. I'm sure that if I'd had that throughout my childhood then my life would have turned out very differently.

[frikadela01]

There is also a large proportion of people who believe everything is down to hard work and there is no external influence whatsoever. In my experience these people are the Richards of the comic strip a pp posted... the "haves" of this world and think the "have nots" just don't work hard enough or make foolish decisions.

I do agree though that most people sit somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

[Postino]

One thing that I'm very grateful for, and which has helped me all my life, is the resilience I was born with. By pure chance, I have something in me that allowed me to overcome many early challenges.

It is out of my hands, but I'll always be thankful for it. Though the flip side is it makes me a bit stubborn sometimes

[silvermantela]

I think it is for most people a mix between either 'luck' or 'privilege' and then their own efforts ('hard work' or 'skills').

What I don't understand is people who get offended when you point out the first half of the equation. It's as if they feel that being lucky, or privileged in some manner negates their own efforts, when of course it doesn't.

All the posters above who have pointed out how you, personally, didn't have the advantage of all/some of OP's ten points, surely you must still understand that you did have some privileges that have helped towards your life's success, e.g. being able bodied, being white, living in a time period and a country where women are legally able to work and to be educated...

The fact that you may have been more disadvantaged than your peers in whatever way but still, through your own efforts (whether intellect, good work ethic, shrewd investments, whatever), managed to improve yourself is of course fantastic, and a credit to you. But you must be aware that there were other people around you, who could have been just as clever, or worked just as hard, but just missed out on your life because they had one extra disadvantage, or a different disadvantage that they just couldn't overcome?