To wonder how this can be happening in Europe

[Mistigri]

I read this earlier today: Day 8 Lesvos - actually it took me two goes to get all the way through it because I found it so upsetting.

It's an account of one woman's efforts to help refugees in Lesvos - she is working with the thousands of people who are queueing to register with the Greek authorities. As I understand it, until they are registered they cannot access help from NGOS like the UNHCR. The only help they have is from a few self-funded volunteers like Merel, who wrote the account above. It is heartbreaking.

I'm not trying to make a party political point about immigration here btw - it is a problem beyond the ability of any single party, nation or even continent to resolve. But where is our humanity if we can leave pregnant women and babies without food, shelter, medical attention or even clean water? How can this be happening in Europe and hardly anyone seems to care? It's not even important enough to make the newspapers any more :(

They are not that safe in Turkey- they are illegal immigrants who cannot work or send their kids to school.

The UK has given over £1bn pounds in aid to Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria since 2011.
And nobody has deliberately tear-gassed babies.

Because they weren't safe in Turkey, gingham.

Take a look at what is happening in France right now. A huge police presence including helicopters in order to round up refugees and place them in detention centres without grounds or charge.

Children freezing in wet conditions in Calais. People in Calais trying to survive on one meal every two days.

How can we call ourselves human if we just stand by and say or do nothing?

The Turkey argument is irrelevant to this thread anyway tbh. Regardless of whether they "should" have stayed where they were, they didn't. They're in Europe now, and in Europe we are supposed to do things in a civilised way with due respect for human rights and international conventions.

If the collective view of the european people is that they should go back, then so be it - but lets do it with dignity eh? By providing adequate processing centres and humanitarian relief. Not by letting desperate crowds build up, and then tear-gassing them, babies and children included, when things get out of control.

Re the tear gas, this is from the blog I linked to in my OP:

"... people are getting trampled on, piled on top of each other when they all try to push in. She grabs my arm, "we have to pull out the babies!", we run in and with all my might i tuck at the people stuck at the bottom, it's no use, I see a child and pull her arms. Then, a strange smell and a quick sensation: teargas. It burns my eyes, my throat, my face, people scream and run away from the gas. I have to let go of the child and run also, it is unbearable. "

:(

some are opportunists though. I saw a bbc docu few weeks back and one man said he was Syrian fleeing and he had taken a single woman under his wings with her children because her husband I presume was dead. As they were getting off the boat he conveniently lost her bag important travel documents and money. After that they parted ways apparently he apologised but he cant do no more she was a burden with the kids.

Later he admitted he was Syrian but been living and working in Lebanon prior to the mass movement to Europe. he looked well dressed and even chirpy. I get the feeling the swine used the woman took her documents and money then ditched her. he is your classic opportunist and a bloody thief.

Mistigri - where are the people to take care of the processing of migrants and refugees supposed to appear from? Who is supposed to finance them?

Lesbos (which I have visited many times, because I have friends who have a house there and many, many relatives on the island) is a poor place where many inhabitants live off the land.

The people at Calais are NOT refugees.
I agree they should be treated with dignity, but that goes both ways they cannot be allowed to force their way through border crossings leaving a trail of destruction behind them.

Well here's the problem: people are fleeing to European countries as they want to work and hav a good standard of living. They are not going to get that in Turkey, or Greece, or Croatia.
I don't have a problem with that. Nor do Greece or Croatia or FYROM or Germany or Sweden. Hungary does.
As it's happening anyway, at the point that it is happening i.e. Now, I don't see why these people are being subject to such conditions in Europe when it does not need to be the case.

bobo the GDP of the EU is over $18 trillion. That's a number with 12 zeros after it. So yeah, out of some of that ...

I don't think this is a trivial problem, but the situation in the Greek Islands at least has the merit of being geographically concentrated, and therefore amenable to a solution, assuming sufficient resources rather than a few crowdfunded volunteers.

bobo maybe Children in Need, Oxfam, Red Cross, could provide some funds. Or the EU. Or tax dodgers like Starbucks? At present it's some people on Lesbos and some people around Europe privately funding it.
I've seen MSF, Save The Children and UNHCR as well as Mercy Corps and Israid give money/workers/supplies in Greece.

Tired I can't see any alternative to EU involvement (well, I suppose the alternative is that we all close our eyes - "acceptable alternative" is whaf I mean).

Ideally the UNHCR should be dealing with it, but they are dramatically underfunded, to the extent that rations have been cut to refugee camps in the Middle East (in Lebanon in particular, where 20% of the population is now refugees). This is worsening the crisis, of course, because it increases the incentive for people to risk all to come to Europe if they can afford it, or to return to Syria if they can't.

I guess the truth is - and this thread is ample proof of it - that most people think that it is fundamentally OK to treat refugees in ways that would be illegal if they were farm animals, because the alternative is spending money that could be employed to more useful purposes (like cutting taxes, or replacing Trident, or subsidising Chinese nuclear plants).

gingham and others, this is why not (taken from UNHCR info):

"Turkey's Foreign Minister, Mevlü Çavu??lu, wrote a letter to the EU leaders prior to their September 23 summit meeting. He demanded their support for a “safe zone” 68 miles long and 40 miles deep on the Syrian side of the Turkish border as a quid pro quo for Turkey’s cooperation on migration control.

President Recep Tayyip Erdo?an announced earlier this summer that this safe zone would constitute “the basis of 1.7 million Syrian refugees' return." The US has made clear, however, that it would not be willing to enforce a no-flight zone, and so it’s likely this prospective border space would be more “unsafe area” than safe.

Turkey’s is committed to carving out a place of return in Syria and talks openly about this as the basis for placing the refugees there. This, combined with its unwillingness to give Syrians a firm legal refugee status, is a serious basis for Syrians to be uncertain about Turkey’s commitment to continue to provide temporary protection to Syrian refugees.

After five years, Syrian refugees in Turkey - 80 percent of whom live outside the camps- have exhausted their resources. They are prohibited from working legally, so those who do work illegally are exploited and underpaid, increasing social tensions between the refugees and their hosts. "

And unfortunately things appear to be getting worse still:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lliana-bird/refugee-crisis-lesbos_b_8388988.html

I am ashamed that this is happening somewhere where we could actually put enough pressure on our government to force them to take action. The papers are barely mentioning it now - presumably because they believe that their readers are bored of it and won't pay for any more stories on this subject?

It's interesting, isn't it, that when we talk about the atrocities of WWII, it is often claimed by the inhabitants of towns surrounding concentration camps that they "didn't know". The debate always turns on the question of knowledge - the implication of the way in which the debate is framed is that any human being who knew about the unnecessary deaths of others would inevitably act.

We can't say that we don't know what's happening here. I genuinely believe that the history books will rip us to shreds for what is happening today/last night/this afternoon.

It is also interesting (if upsetting) that if there were any suggestion of military threat situated in Lesbos, you can bet your life that the UK would find millions of pounds within the next half hour and have planes in the sky within the hour. They would presumably cancel the building of garden bridges across the Thames and high speed rail links and indeed, arts council funding (although this makes me sad, there's no way I can compare my reduced price theatre tickets within someone else's baby freezing to death) and would be in Greece by lunchtime. It is not a question of capacity - it is just a question of priorities.

Beautifully put, Theremustbesomething.

I detest the casual hate-rhetoric of the likes of Ginghamcricket and their ilk - "these people"? And broad generalisations of "Turkey is safe".

For fucks sake how brilliant is it, if the preferable option is to March your family miles into the unknown with crowds of other desperate people, in the clothes they're stood up in? Catch on to yourself.

Thank you theremustbesomething, you've expressed very eloquently how I feel about it.

We are in a very small minority, though :(

You mustn't believe that, there's growing support and education as the message gets out. Stay strong.

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8388988

Whether this has been linked to before or not, it needs reading.

Very moving. V pleased Huff Post ran it.

Thank you cuttedup! Think that is the doctor who has been working with the woman whose blog post I linked to in the OP.

I am very glad the situation is getting some publicity, although I don't think that the huff post is very influential in Europe unfortunately. It's kind of preaching to the converted.

I would love to think that the efforts of these volunteers might eventually be recognised and rewarded in some way.

Hi all, I've just seen this post on FB from someone else in Lesvos. Finally something in place...seems like international media attention works maybe.

gingham which safe country did they come from? Turkey isn't safe

Since when isn't Turkey safe? Genuine question.

Ok, sorry, scratch last post - just seen the post above.

That's great news. All relative, obviously, but it sounds like a massive improvement.

It's so upsetting. Especially the unaccompanied children. I want to go over and bring them home.