To wonder why so many teachers want to quit

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Inspired by other threads but I didn't want to derail.

What is going on in education that is making teaching so stressful?

I work in the City and you don't see too many people quitting with stress even though the work can be stressful. Certainly, not the numbers you see in teaching.

Oh, and if a french student is not up to scratch at the end of the year, this is their own fault for not working hard enough, and they have to repeat the year. This also happens in Germany.

As a teacher of High school level students, I kind of do object to the idea that French teachers at this level are better educated and higher qualified.

But they have the immeasureable advantage of being able to focus on their specialities and upper level students. The way funding has been cut means that lots of speciality teachers are being chased out, or have been chased out of state schools. Larger year 12 and 13 classes because of changes to rules about how many are in a calss, which then result the need to teach second and third subjects to fill up their timetable.

What you end with is teaching the same or more A level and GCSE students, but less time to do it in, with the added extra of taking year 7-9 classes on in your second/third subject and needing to spend time developing the resources for that.

I've done it, but others have left, to go to 6th form colleges, teacher training themselves and a whole range of careers.

Skandistyle was this an academy? I genuinely did not think that most schools recruited people with no PGCEs unless it was to train on some form of SCITT scheme. Did they want you to act as long term cover - which again they should not do - or to be a full time teacher? It is indeed shocking.

No it wasn't an academy. The implication was that I would obviously have to embark on some sort of training, I think it was still the Cert Ed, as it was quite a good few years ago now?

But there were no plans in place to start me on the Cert Ed before actually starting work, or even necessarily within that same academic year. Whether it was different criteria for FE colleges back then I don't know.

But I did not fancy the sound of it at all.

Did you know ...

... the UK Government had to put a quota on the number of English teachers it was sending to the European Schools (schools run by the EU for their employees) as they were in such demand, not least because they are the only ones that like to run clubs, willingly take middle management positions and can be relied upon to teach all children effectively, regardless of background and ability. They are lapped up by our European counterparts.

The French (and German) desire to keep children down a year is generally damaging to children in the long term in educational terms, but certainly makes life easier for the teachers ....

We knock the British system at our peril, and by the way, if any other tosser comes on here saying how our standards are declining and what a shit education English children get, I would like to direct them to the PIRLS, TIMSS and PISA data. If you review all of that it is very clear we have consistently have had a top ten education system for the last generation or more, and will continue to do so in future if we stop fucking about with teacher supply and/or chucking the money away on accountancy and legal fees whilst changing the label attached to schools from 'community' to 'academy'.

I could be wrong but you don't need a PGCE to teach in FE, am not sure wat training you do need.

I am shocked at you being asked to teach a core subject or indeed any subject with no training, don't blame you for not wanting to take up their offer which is at best skirting very close to the edge of the rules in place.

'We have had a top ten education system for the last generation or more'

Arrogant rubbish by any definition

Of course the CBI, HE Admissions Tutors, employers, students themselves & all other stakeholders might of course be misguided in their criticism and disappointment about standards reached by students in England, but they are united in their views that standards and skills across the subject range are in rapid decline.

Which is why professionals & trades from doctors to plumbers from overseas are so desperately needed and welcomed in this country.

I don't have a PGCE, I only have QTS. It's never been a problem.

French Lycée teachers are often startlingly well qualified but teach classes of 35+ pupils. It's a very different environment, one that is IME good for able and well-supported pupils who are more challenged to think independently than at A-level.

AmandaJane, so you have read the international data from TIMSS, PIRLS and PISA and fully understand what it all says?

You have looked at the test results and rankings and read through the explanations?

Or do you just dismiss all the international tests and rankings as irrelevant, because it doesn't suit your argument?

This explains how and possibly why AmandaJane has misunderstood the international situation. Timing of the test, sampling of pupils, and the age our pupils have been when taking the tests (sometimes almost an academic year younger than pupils in other countries) all impact on outcomes.

No hard evidence that England has slid down international rankings

I've found that the maxim: 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' particularly true in education, Philoslothy.

It's not rocket science to work out that if the student : teacher ratio were reduced (that's the subjunctive in case you are unsure of my English usage) by addressing the ability of 'S'LT level to 'fuck around' (using your elegant phraseology) and indulge in the advantage-taking many of us acknowledge is so prevalent while classroom teachers sink to their knees, the question posed by the OP could be answered.

I believe 'unqualified' teachers can teach in schools here, and are paid on the 'instructor rate' which is lower than teachers get. I've known of overseas teachers being employed in this way as their qualifications were not recognised here. Also it's permissible for HLTAs to take classes. It's happening.

Apologies Philoslothy, my last post was in reply to 'Boffin'

Add message | Report | Message poster Pipbin Wed 28-Oct-15 22:14:21
I don't have a PGCE, I only have QTS. It's never been a problem.

Yes there are different routes to QTS, I was a teach first candidate , but I had QTS - Skandi did not and at best the school were vague about how the training would happen.

"As a teacher of High school level students, I kind of do object to the idea that French teachers at this level are better educated and higher qualified"

It wasn't intended as a criticism. The system is just not comparable as bobochic says above. French lycée teachers only teach Y11 and up, only teach their own subject, and may even teach to first or second year degree standard (my daughter's school offers two year post-18 accountancy and management courses).

Overall French teachers certainly don't have an easy job but it is nothing compared to what is described on this thread.

With regards to qualifications, some teachers don't even have an undergraduate degree... I have taught at 2 schools now where there have been teachers just starting their undergrad with the OU. So they won't even have a degree for the first 4/5 years they teach. They would then need to do some form of PGCE after that. And these 'teachers' have their own classes.

But if you go by that maxim Amanda, then the stats that prove your point (when you want to use them) are also held by it. Which kinda puts your argument out.

I've found where education standards are concerned there are rose tinted specs on all sides.

The CIB are definately not to be taken seriously as they criticise anything that doesn't deliver them exactly what they want, which is workers who need no training who can just get on with the job.

HE admissions tutors are a complicated one, but no doubt we see more students going to uni now ( to meet the demands of the CIB) so standards will have gone down since the days when only the top 15% went to uni.

I'd agree with the UCL report up there, there are too many variables involved.

I've never heard of that MrsPCR and that should definately not be happening. God, I'd never hire someone who didn't have an undergrad degree, UNLESS they had significant industry experience and were able to implement that.

Now in some vocational subjects thats fine, but nothing core or that is studied as a traditional A level.

lurker if we are not to take the CBI seriously, I would question the point of spending taxpayers' hard-earned money on state-funded education at all.

I believe that a return to the Victorian era in which eg Bourneville provided industry-appropriate training and education, along with investment in holistic pastoral welfare would be a superior value-for-money model than the current system which is clearly dysfunctional on all levels.

This is possibly because I come from a family of hard-working and high-achieving entrepreneurs, and attended a private school, so forgive my unorthodox views.

I am an excellent classroom practitioner. Honestly, you would want your children in my classroom because I am passionate, enthusiastic. I care. I have always and will always work incredibly hard for my students. Last year I failed my Y11 targets spectacularly. Two girls got pregnant and stopped attending, one boy was permanently excluded half way through Y11, another just didn't turn up for his GCSE exam. If I was undergoing appraisal I would be considered 'requires improvement'. I am not because I am maternity leave. An RI judgement basically gives a school carte blanche to force you out. I have seen it happen many times over. Good, solid classroom practitioners forced out because the data did not compute with whatever targets had been dreamt up by an ivory towered SLT. Targets which bear no resemblance to real life. Targets which fail to take into account the fact that X didn't get a C because she got pregnant, got kicked out, was being groomed by a local gang. Nobody cares about the stories behind the data, nobody cares about the 'why'. It is just your fault. You failed to get them to make progress therefore you are to be punished. The whole system is untenable. Surely it has to implode because I really don't know where it will end.

(The boy who was excluded guesstimated the width of my vagina once in class. Where else would this happen? He was back in class the next lesson after being given 15 minute lunchtime detention.)

MrsPCR Ime that is very rare and I have been involved in the recruiting of teachers. I have been out of teaching for about a year but we never appointed somebody without QTS and never without a degree. I can't think of an appointment that I was involved with where the candidate did not have at least a 2:1. These examples are shocking me.

I come from a family of hard working and high achieving academics, teachers, international development economists, and some high flying captains of industry.

I went to state school, and despite having a significant SEN which wasn't recognised at the time, over came this and went to a top university and gained a first.

The CBI is a pressure group with vested interests, for example if you look at their annual complaint article from last year it has the following issues with it.

1. It discusses school leavers. Now with our system a school leaver is not an A level or FE graduate, so then we must assume that a large majority of "school leavers" are those leaving at 16 to get jobs, who are likely to be the disengaged or those who have struggled. The fact that the vast majority of students stay on post 16 suggests that you are getting the weakest candidates ( well pay peanuts get monkeys is what I reckon).

1. That more students need to take apprenticeships not be pushed toward university. Now note that this solves issue 1, but no where have they suggested that they will pay for it. Essentially this is asking the government to do it for them.

I could go on, but the CBI have had the same article and same issues for over 20 years. They do this because it allows them to frame arguments in a certain way and lobby for their own issues, not out of any philanthropic ideals about education.

"I believe that a return to the Victorian era in which eg Bourneville provided industry-appropriate training and education, along with investment in holistic pastoral welfare would be a superior value-for-money model than the current system which is clearly dysfunctional on all levels."

Nice idea, never going to happen in practice. In fact the post war consensus era got closest to it.

lurker - I don't think that the French teachers (in the French system) are necessarily better educated, but the set up is such that it is better respected and a more attractive career. Yes, a huge down side is that you can be sent anywhere in the country. At the lycée where I worked (y11-13) the classes were huge, the teachers were very much chalk and talk but the kids were pretty keen to learn and certainly any failure was shouldered by them. But the teachers were free to walk out after they had taught, the teachers who had gone through the normal route had 18 hours max while those who were aggrégé had 12 hours. There was no homework or classwork to mark, just assessments. There were inspections but as far as I can remember it tended to be teachers who asked for them, as this was their route to getting more pay. Staff had about an hour and a half at lunch so would regularly go home or go out for a pizza together. In the staff dining room at school there were carafes of wine (can you imagine that here?) and there were no pastoral teachers, just a guy who was in charge of discipline. There were university students on hand who were kind of supervisors. It was a while ago, but I got the impression that not much changes. I know that repeating the year has gone out of fashion quite a lot and is now only a very tiny percentage.

Just a little question Amanda, would you be one of those who would question the NASUWT, NUT, Headteachers union etc, when they object to policy changes?

If you believe the CBI should be believed implicitly why not other stakeholders?