To wonder why so many teachers want to quit

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Inspired by other threads but I didn't want to derail.

What is going on in education that is making teaching so stressful?

I work in the City and you don't see too many people quitting with stress even though the work can be stressful. Certainly, not the numbers you see in teaching.

"On the continent it is such a highly sought after job that there are competitive exams, longer training periods and high levels of respect."

Which countries? Teaching is a highly sought after job in a few countries like Finland, Singapore and so on. In other countries like Sweden and Spain, it faces the same issues as it does in the UK.

France and Germany in particular.

France:
postes offerts : 7 200
candidats inscrits : 33 351
candidats présents à l'admissibilité : 19 572
candidats admissibles : 10 736
candidats admis : 6 154
candidats inscrits sur liste complémentaire : 115
admis / présents à l'admissibilité : 31,44%

Germany:
teacher training

Training for primary school teachers takes 3.5 years at university. For lower-secondary teachers, university training lasts 3.5–4.5 years with two further years of practical training in school settings. For upper-secondary school teachers, training takes 4.5 years at university, with a further 2.5 years of practical training in a school setting.

Can you imagine graduates in the UK being told that to qualify as a teacher they would need to do an additional up to 7 years of training? And there even being such a desire to be a teacher that that could be considered viable? Here we have people entering a classroom with ZERO training and experience. Here we have such low requirements that a pulse is practically the only pre-requisite. We have adverts begging people to join. It's absolutely laughable.

Iguana here in the UK training to be a teacher could mean for years at university (undergraduate plus pgce) and then a year in school as an nqt. It is not true that all you need is a pulse! That is quite insulting actually.

And people might enter a classroom with no training or experience (although only as students) but they are not then in charge of that classroom!)

The ads made me smile having read this thread. I could imaging some of the comments being yelled at the screen.

I think the discussion about supply teaching goes back to some of the key points on this thread. Teachers enjoy teaching, its the admin, micromanaging and constant scrutiny that is the killer. I suppose supply is a way of getting back to some of the core teaching without the overlay of bureaucracy and impossible targets.

What about academies? Aren't they free from the petty restrictions of having to employ a qualified workforce?
I know that independents are.

I know how long it takes to train because I am a teacher! It is insulting that it takes such a low level of training. The undergraduate years have nothing tondo with teacher training. The PGCE does, and the nqt year (although it's hard to fail that) are. But of course it's impossible to increase the level of challenge to train while there is a recruitment crisis and while over half the current work force want to leave.

Trust me, I would rather work in a profession which was hard to get into due to the volume of people wanting to do it, where retention and respect were high.

Fitz - yes on a GTP they are in charge of that class. They may have a mentor, but they have a timetable and classes they are responsible for. They are not considered students. They are paid a salary.

Me to iguana.

It is sad and frustrating.

Academies are free of silly restrictions like employing someone with training, yes. But in reality most of them realise that having someone with no training or experience at all doesn't tend to work out too well.

'Freedom' in academies is a double-edged sword. They are free from what some see as petty restrictions, but some also routinely flout rules (which definitely DO apply to them) on e.g. admissions and exclusions, plus employment law, which they do with impunity because there is no one (i.e. the LA) to police it. It's outrageous.

And no teacher with their head screwed on will report the dodgy things that go on, because if they do they will find they cannot remain in the job or find a new teaching job (references).

Iguana, in German Universities many students train to be a teacher following a fairly similar course as we do. The undergrad is subject based, post grad training, followed by a years NQT.

So thats 3 years undergrad, 1 year PGCE, 1 Year NQT. 5 years to be a qualified teacher in the UK. Thats not exactly easy is it (unless you are an academy and hiring unqualifieds)

Also you state that its not exactly hard to fail an NQT year, I beg to differ. I've seen loads of teachers not make it through that process, most schools will advise an NQT to resign before they get to the stage of having to be failed, as you can't resit.

In fact the PGCE and NQT process is quite greulling a small but significant percentage give up after teaching practice 1, more still fall at the hurdles for teaching practice 2. NQT year weeds out some more, in no way is it an easy process.

This is why its particlularly galling that we are not given more respect and pay in this country, which is why people are leaving. Teaching is easy and we are whingers who just need to shut up and put up is the perspective held by many. Teachers judgements are questioned continually by parents and society, mild spelling mistakes are questioned on here and used as a way to feel superior.

All that and inside the profession you can be put at the mercy of people who can subject you to bullying, pressure put on at every turn, your ability and effort questioned.

THAT is why people are leaving especially young people who can go do something else. Old hands like me, well most of us are now senior enough to deal with managment, and have perfected the withering look for parents when minor issues are made a fuss of. My particular favourite for parents is when told "I want you to" as many do these days, is to reply: "I'm sorry you've mistaken me for customer service, I'm a teacher and I will decide what it right."

I also tell them to complain to the head if they have any issues, strangley most don't.

No idea about Germany, but in France there is widespread discontent among teachers. I subscribe to a the equivalent of the TES and teachers describe all the same issues as those in the UK. But it is more bureaucratic. You have to teach where you are told. You can apply for a transfer between local education authorities, but schools demand a certain tariff of points that you have to accumulate. Much easier to change jobs here - if you see something you want to go for there are no restrictions on applying.

You don't need any experience to be unleashed into a classroom. A few years ago a local(ish) school approached me to work full time as an English teacher. I do not have a PGCE, just some time spent as a TA and Cover Supervisor.

But I do have an English degree and post grad studying too. The school couldn't fill the post, which had been advertised for months because the location was not great.

The fact I had no official teaching qualification didn't seem an issue particularly. I was also offered a teaching post at the local FE college to teach GCSE English.

I declined both as I wouldn't have a clue how to lesson plan, and knew nothing about the current curriculum. And being told that 'We'll cross that bridge when we come to it' wasn't very reassuring.

It would have been unfair on both me and pupils to let me walk, cold, into a classroom and just start teaching just because 20 years ago I knew my Patrachian sonnets from my Shakespearean ones.

I think the situation really is quite desperate.

Ahem.

Teacher training in Germany takes longer mainly because their university degrees are not Bologna-compliant and take a lot longer than UK ones (around 7 years in many cases) although attempts are being made to change this. The content is very similar to one of our 3 or 4 year degree programmes.

Also teachers in the UK do not normally study for a B Ed as these have all but died out in a lot of universities. They do a BA or BSc and a one-year PGCE followed by a probationary year as an NQT. (Teach First and Schools Direct are different but the majority of teachers still do a PGCE).

So the training is actually rather similar but there is a set of professional examinations that teachers have to sit later on in their training.

There are some moves to reduce the length of teacher training in Germany to align it to other countries.

More here from the Humboldt University in Berlin:

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Teacher education in United Kingdom
The training of primary and secondary school teachers is the same: teachers must hold a first degree and a Postgraduate Certificate of Education awarded by a university or college of higher education. Alternatively, they must hold a Bachelor of Education (BEd) Degree and have a qualified teacher status (QTS) which can be obtained after successful completion of an approved course of initial teacher training (ITT). The main types of ITT courses are the one-year Postgraduate Certificate of Education course or the BEd course which normally lasts for four years. For more detailed information about ITT go to www.gttr.ac.uk

An important institute offering teacher training is the Institute of Education at the University of London. It provides amongst other things Postgraduate Certificates of Education in a wide range of areas:

A lot of interesting information about the British education system and teacher training provides the following page: www.euroeducation.net

Teacher education in Germany
Teachers in Germany receive their training in two stages: a first phase at a university and a second phase as a two year practical training at teacher seminars and selected training schools. The structure of teacher training and the contents varies in some aspects in the different Länder which are responsible for teacher education. The following structure is the one for Berlin:

First stage:
The duration of the first phase at a university ranges from 3-4 years for primary school teaching to 5-6 years for higher secondary school teaching. The courses include the study of at least two subjects or subject areas, the study of educational theory and psychology, sociology or philosophy. During their studies the students have to complete three months of practical work at schools. The first stage ends with the First State Examination that includes a final tesis as well as written and oral examinations of the studied subjects, educational theory and didactics.

Second Stage:
The second phase of teacher education is a two year practical training at teacher seminars and schools. It is called Referendariat and ends with the Second State Examination. During this phase the prospective teacher is paid a trainee’s salary. Main source: www.pa-feldkirch.ac.at

Reform of teacher education in Germany:
At the moment teacher education in Germany is being reformed according to the Bologna-Declaration of 1999 that aspires to establish a European Higher Education Area by 2010. For further details on the Bologna-Declaration see ec.europa.eu and www.bologna-berlin2003.de

There are several German universities which introduced the Bachelor and Master system in teacher education in October 2004, the Humboldt-University amongst them. For further details of the new system at Humboldt-University see www.hu-berlin.de

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German teachers are very highly paid. I have cut and pasted a section from alumni portal. Teachers are also likely to receive additional allowances if they are married, for each child they have, and sabbaticals as well as bonuses when they have worked for a certain period of time, such as 10 or 25 years, depending on where they work (I have a feeling some of these perks might be in the process of being cut back, but presumably not the family/marriage ones as they are very common in Germany).

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Teachers in Germany earn more than many of their colleagues in Europe. However, they have to put in more teaching time and their classes are often larger than those of teachers in other countries. According to a comparative study conducted in 2011 by the EU Commission, a primary school teacher in Germany earns between EUR 38,200 and EUR 51,400 a year. But salaries depend on the level of seniority. A middle school teacher earns between EUR 42,200 and EUR 57,900, while salaries at the high-school level range from EUR 45,400 to EUR 64,000. Salaries are higher in Luxembourg where teachers can earn up to EUR 101,500 a year. Bulgaria brings up the rear with salaries averaging just EUR 4,300 a year – a starvation wage.

A look at the OECD’s annual overview of worldwide developments in 34 major industrial nations reveals that German teachers are in the upper third in terms of remuneration. The starting salary for a primary school teacher is USD 46,456 per annum, while the OECD average is only USD 28,523. Based on the OECD country overview , the highest salary that a primary school teacher in Germany can earn is USD 61,209 per annum, while the OECD average is USD 45,100.

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Nerdy data here, for the keen. UK looks rather low in comparison with its Western European neighbours.

EU data

Its true. In terms of teacher training the German system is way more specific in the training, but colleagues I know who have taught in both say the standard of teacher is broadly the same. The big difference in Germany is they have technical colleges which are attatched to industry, there isn't this one size fits all, and all must fit in order to be successful, approach.

The UK workers tend to work longer hours, for lower pay, for lower social service benefits. It makes you wonder who is benefiting from all of our efforts what with us being the 6th largest economy in the world.

I dont think French teachers are more highly qualified, at least not at primary and junior high level - but entry like almost all public sector jobs in France is competitive.

Teachers in senior high and FE are often alarmingly well educated, much more so than your average sixth form teacher. A friend of mine - who has been a practising senior engineer for a couple of decades - recently failed the maths "aggregation" as an independent candidate and has gone back to HE to study for it.

Basically you can't compare the two systems.

And working conditions are far better here - no french teacher ever invented would work a 60 hour week. And rightly so. They have unions here and the unions havent yet had all their teeth extracted.

www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2014/sep/05/how-the-job-of-a-teacher-compares-around-the-world

If these stats of pupil : teacher ratios are to be believed, the reality of England's system represents cynical and contemptuous misappropriation of per capita resources : form groups in my last school were averagely 28-strong, sets 1 & 2 up to 34 in Maths & even set 6 was 20 minimum.

An extremely large proportion of funding subsidising a system in which 'S'LT enjoy light/non-existent contact timetables while presiding over a system which renders our children increasingly innumerate and illiterate.

Several responses to my posts on this thread neatly illustrate the entrenched attitude of: 'Criticising each other is not the way forward', which has led to the current collapse of standards and dire lack of professional management in our state schools.

According to Twitter it has been admitted that 65K is misleading. Seems odd to pay out for an expensive advert and then have to admit it was misleading.

Mistigri
I remember many years ago that 'aggrege' teachers taught a max of 8 hours a week - I do remember them being quite haughty no way would they have done a 'duty', run a club, etc. They were teachers, not social workers, or pastoral workers.

A teacher in France only teaches 16 hours per week. Form groups don't exist, so no form time, no assembly. No detention rota and hardly any meetings. They don't mark notes or exercises done and corrected in class, only independent student work and tests. They don't have to be on site when they are not teaching, and many schools ask their staff how they would like the non teaching hours blocked and try to accommodate this where possible. Our friends have friday afternoon off so they can drive home to see family leaving early.
However they are paid less than uk teachers, and they do not choose their school, or even the town it is in, this is allocated by the government. After a certain number of years service you can build up enough points to request a change of location, but even then its only to chose area, not a specific school.

Also, according to Twitter they mislead new recruits over salary in an advert in 2008. You would think they would learn to get their facts right.