To think 'U' and 'Non-U' are defunct concepts in 2015?

[StrawberryTeaLeaf]

I'm as partial to a bit of Nancy Mitford as the next woman but I'm a bit taken aback to read references to U/non U twice in one week. Apparently quite seriously.

Do many people still think in these terms?

But I should imagine most Americans have no difficulty whatsoever is differentiating between a Bostonian whose ancestors came over in the Mayflower and someone raised in a trailer park, even if the former has lost all their money and the latter has come into wealth.

Possibly. But the difference is that if the trailer park person became wealthy by his or her own hard work, there would likely be greater societal respect for them than there would be for the Bostonian who had lost his money. And in one generation the trailer park origins would probably be largely erased.

Did anyone else think the U stood for Unreasonable or am I just spending too much time on MN?

senecafalls i agree, I'm not American, but can I take the poor old middletons as an example, they made money through hard work, they spent it on a lovely house and apartments and education for their children. In Ireland they'd be respected! We have class obviously but I think there is an obligation to respect somebody who's done well, that obligation leaves the observer obliged to overlook various 'clues' that give away origin. I am talking generally about a feeling, not a rule.

We were taught the difference between U and non-U terms in A level English language class at my terrible, underfunded and poor performing comprehensive about 15 years ago.
Thank goodness - it was excellent training for when I arrived at a RG uni

If U is Upper Class then presumably the proportion of Mumsnetters who really are U is quite small.

I am usually so relaxed I'm practically dead, but threads about class signifiers make me come over all Red Army and start muttering about revolutions and walls. I mean, God, it's just so stupid. People start piling in with comments about how they would just die if their DC said "pardon"

This poem needs to be posted in all discussions of U and non-U.

How To Get On In Society by John Betjeman

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know that I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

I guess I'm too young to have heard of this.

I thought you were referring to film classifications at first (universal)

This is the thing. I thought it was one of those scraps of social history I knew. Or something you pick up reading pre-war classics.

If anyone said, "Such and such or so and so is Non U" in rl, I would think they were stark raving bonkers and deeply insecure. Then I'd feel a bit sorry for them and pat them patronisingly on the head.

Quite. Or help them find their time machine

Good old Betjeman. Thank you Seneca

F0x, I don't think the Middletons would necessarily be any more respected in Ireland - Irish begrudgery (which I always kind of enjoy) adores pulling anyone who's 'done well for themselves' to pieces, whether they're Bono or Whatsit, the Penny Apples guy.

Plus the Middletons couldn't exist in Ireland, really, in the sense of comparatively nouveaux riches whose daughter married into the royal family, which is what seems to get up people's noses in the UK, with all that 'toilet'/'doors to manual' snidery. Unless we revived the High Kings and had an aristocracy other than the Knight of Glin and some ancient Anglos mouldering in Big Houses.

I do think the Celtic Tiger's aftermath has left Ireland more obsessed with consumerism and display - it's become more unpleasantly blingy in certain respects.

Strawberry, I've never heard anyone actually say 'non-U' - I mean, I don't think it was ever a thing the upper classes were supposed to say among themselves, more a joky, knowing taxonomy thing for classifying class shibboleths.

What I have heard, on more than one occasion, said quite matter-of-factly, is 'NQOC' ('Not Quite Our Class, Dear'). Not said out of insecurity, as far as I could judge, either. There was nothing at all aspirational about these people, all women, who were well up the social ladder.

Sofa or couch? Oh god, which one should I be saying, have I been doing it wrong all along?

Orange crates are the answer jelly

Call it settee, jellyfrizz and proudly set off the non-U alarm every time .

Think the actual phrases U/none U is probably defunct, I always thought it was something the Mitfords said among themselves, like an in joke about other people.
I've heard the NQOT (not quite our type) phrase.

I was in blissful ignorance and based on 1st couple of posts thought U for Underclass - I'm easily confused and obviously younger than I feared. Never going to be induced to refer to my U-bend as my lavatory or loo so I guess I'm out.

I thought the only marker was whether you tore your side bread (U) or cut it (non-U).

Oh and my Gran insisted on pants not knickers and just to spite her 40 years on I always say knickers.

The Middletons got a lot of their money from a trust fund set up by wealthy gentry/upper middle class ancestors on his side.

Conversation overheard on a visit a couple of years ago to the necessary facilities at Hampton Court (which as an American I call a restroom or bathroom if in a private house.)

Small girl: That toilet's open, mummy.
Mummy: Yes, darling, but we call it a loo.
Small girl: But my teacher says toilet.
Mummy: I know, darling, and that's fine for her. But we say loo.

Settee all the way here

I say loo, but when I@m in a shop, I say toilet. Trying not to be twee. I think.

That poem is funny. I hadn't seen that before!

I'm trying really hard to stop calling the damn thing "potty" so at this point bog, toilet, loo would all be better.

Thank you, seneca, that Betjeman poem is so bitchy.
I always thought the 'U' stood for 'Us' as in People Like Us.

I thought that Betjeman poem was really snide as well.

The last relic of my upbringing is that I still do a little (inward) cringe when my children say 'toilet', though I would never correct them. Every other stupid class signifier my family tried to inculcate in me has been resoundingly squished, I am proud to say.

I am fascinated by the class system (much to my mother's chagrin) and I tried to get hold of the Nancy Mitford book a few years ago. It was practically impossible. That in itself made me think it was not exactly current. I shall try again the hope someone might have ebooked it.

I dislike it as a means of judging people (makes me think of the 'doors to manual' stuff about Kate Middleton), but I do find it fascinating. For example my parents & grandparents had doilies (when they were in use), toilet, settee, and GP serviettes.

My DP's upbringing was financially similar but our GPs were of utterly different social classes. They sure as shit didn't have settees, but nor would they have had had the rudeness to comment when I said settee.

I say loo these days BTW, but when I'm trying to wind up my mother (who has the faux genteel 'toilet' 'serviette' etc. in her upbringing) I just say crapper

Going back to your OP, I think some 'non-U' things (serviettes, doilies) are still naff, but they're naff generally. I don't think anyone gives a shit about sofa / couch / settee or toilet. I have never said 'pardon?' for can't hear as that's just silly.