To get fed up with people with people like Jamie Oliver trying to coerce poor people via taxation.

[Booyaka]

I absolutely loathe Jamie Oliver anyway, but this crusade of his over sugar is driving me mad. I think something possibly needs to be done about sugar, but I don't think this is the way to do it. He did make a suggestion about prominently labelling total number of teaspoons of sugar in a product, which seemed quite sensible. But mainly he was pushing the tax angle.

Jamie Oliver's entire schtick seems to be that poor people can't be trusted to make the right decisions so they should instead be priced out to force them to make the decisions that he and his ilk believe that they should be making.

It bloody annoys me that they seem to think if you are wealthy and can afford them anyway you can be trusted to make the right decision anyway, but if you're poor you need to be coerced, and that coercion, of something as basic as what you eat and drink, is fine as long as you are poor. He did very much concentrate on handwringing about 'the deprived' too and how this tax would seemingly save them from themselves.

Apparently 1/3 of the products he sell in his restaurants are high sugar anyway, but he probably doesn't mind that, because he prices his tat so highly only middle class people can afford it and they're sensible enough to be trusted with sugar unlike the proles.

He probably doesn't realise, but a lot of people can't afford to take their kids to Tuscany or the Caribbean, Cornwall or even Skeg-bloody-ness. They can't buy their kids a lot of toys or give them days out. Is it really fair to give these people a financial kicking for giving their kids one of the few treats they can afford? Especially when many of them do so sensibly and in moderation.

Feta oh yes there are a lot of things that are free, pleasurable and don't involve sugar. And the chattering classes are often out doing those things.
But if you have no precedent for doing that stuff then you don't think of it. If you're depressed. If you don't have wellies. If the bus costs. If one of your dc has additional needs. If you're a lone parent.
There are many reasons why getting out and about for free in the fresh air can seem difficult. Our MaccyD's had soft play. Easy afternoon out on a rainy day.

Italian - how do you think the shops could make fresh fruit and veg cheaper than doughnuts? Fruit & veg take up more land and more labour than wheat & sugar. They're more nutritious because they take nutrition, don't you see that?

Plus, we live on an inhospitable latitude where fresh fruit & most veg need importing half the year.

"Making fruit & veg cheaper", as my beloved Aldi does, is achieved by shafting producers in worse-off countries.

Tinkly, so when you get to 80 or 90 and you have mobility issues and health problems that's okay, but not if you do it earlier in your life?

All this nonsense about 'costing the NHS millions' ignores the fact that everybody dies. Even if you eat the healthiest diet ever, you are still going to die. And it's not just the obese who have problems in the years leading up to their deaths, there is a high likelihood that even if they ran 5 miles a day and never had a BMI over 22 when they got into their later years they could suffer a multitude of age related diseases like osteoporosis, arthritis, dementia, age related diabetes and hypertension and cancer which would be just as drawn out and just as costly.

I'm not saying it's some sort of solution to problems in seriousness.

On Newsnight tonight they actually said that childhood obesity was falling. And a lot of people dispute that there is an obesity crisis altogether. This article is a bit old, but it has some interesting facts in there:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/obesity-epidemic-who-are-you-calling-fat-397647.html

A lot of it is down to the classifications of what is overweight changing, and the fact that people who have just gained a few pounds can be skewing the figures to make something look a lot more serious than it is. There are quite a few scholarly articles on the same subject including the BMJ.

And the National Obesity Forum admitted exaggerating the obesity epidemic last year and presenting a study based on anecdotal evidence without making it clear it was non-scientific.

Not sure that smokers pop off that quickly either Charity, plenty gasp along on COPD for years and it is a major contributor to heart disease.

Plenty of people I know from my deprived home town, are basically just existing rather than living, on massive amounts of medication and with hospital and GP appointments weekly.

Lifestyle related conditions are a huge burden to the NHS.

People who are hungry need donations of calorie-laden carb-heavy food to keep going.

Yes, this too.

It's like typing in invisible ink, though ...

Some do Tinkly, yes. PlentyOfPubeGardens usually posts the stats on the vaping threads but generally smokers are a dream because they don't live for decades after retirement and don't get ill until they've paid in for years.

Lifestyle related conditions do place a huge burden but as a previous poster has said, it can go the other way. My mother, non-drinker, non-smoker, slim, fairly fit developed dementia and cost the NHS alone many many multiples of what she had paid in tax over a lifetime.

There are loads of things to do that are free, pleasurable and which don't involve junk food and sugar.

Like what? If you're really poor you're probably limited pretty much to your local area, and outside London unless you live right in the centre of the city there are normally very, very few free places to visit. Which leaves outdoor activities. And we live in a crap climate. I love going out walking in the summer, but for 8 months of the year and quite a bit of the other 4 it's a crap, wet, miserable, cold, horrible experience. A lot of people don't like doing it. I don't do it. I go to the cinema, or eat out. I do a lot of crafts at home with my children, or play games and do dressing up which is often very cheap and fun. But to kids, although that's nice, it's not really a treat. And when they know they've got mates going on holiday and going to theme parks would you begrudge them having a Freddo?

I really think people who think that there are lots of free pleasurable things to do should try that logic on a northern council estate in January with 80p in their pocket and see exactly how much 'fun' they and their kids have.

Charity re Jamie Oliver is a Conservative party supporter. Really? well I certainly do not like him so much now!

Garrick Re Italian - how do you think the shops could make fresh fruit and veg cheaper than doughnuts? Fruit & veg take up more land and more labour than wheat & sugar. They're more nutritious because they take nutrition, don't you see that? Yes, I do. But I also wonder if some of these shops make cheaper foods available even more cheaply, like lost leaders, so they are offered extra cheaply to get folks through the doors. The people who will ultimately pay for all this is not the shops but the British public who will pay for the NHS services for people who are obese. I weight too much. I know that weight gain and loss is a massive issues (excuse the pun) and is genuinely very complicated. But I also feel shops who are making money from the British public should be accountable in some way.

An example would be the plastic bag 5p charge. For years I meant to carry bags with me and often forgot. Since the charge I have genuinely tried harder to take and reuse bags. Not because I cannot afford the 5p (I can) but because that additional cost reminds me of the cost to the planet of too many plastic bags.

Re Plus, we live on an inhospitable latitude where fresh fruit & most veg need importing half the year. Well maybe if we were encouraged to eat seasonal more then it would be less of an issue, so seasonal food could be cheaper.

Re "Making fruit & veg cheaper", as my beloved Aldi does, is achieved by shafting producers in worse-off countries. I absolutely do not support that. I am thinking more of ethical stores which could subsidise some selected fruit and veg from the costs of higher more expensive, luxury (and unhealthy options). I am not saying people would not eat unhealthy food but that they might be tempted to shop in an ethical shop and would be pleased if their money was used in this way. As an example think about fair trade, when it started about 30 years ago it was a niche market. My church sold Trade Craft and Tear Fund coffee and tea every Sunday from a table in the corner! Now Fair trade is everywhere. I thin ethical UK shopping, like paying a fair price for milk, would catch on if it were offered. Just my view.

Charity YES YES YES I have to keep my carbs low otherwise i gain weight I had to cut out pasta completely this time to lose weight. ive only just reintroduced it in small portions on the odd occasion.

IF JO gave a shit surely he would be interested in finding a way to help those who have to use food banks. Because not eating for long periods then filling up on cheap carbs can make you gain weight. But food banks cant give out fresh food because it doesnt keep.

Booyaka re All this nonsense about 'costing the NHS millions'.. would you not agree that diabetes costs the NHS millions. And quite a lot of it is related to weight. I know I have it. I don't ae it because I am overweight, but being overweight increase the risks.

Re And a lot of people dispute that there is an obesity crisis altogether. I wonder if you have been outdoors lately! Really being obese is quite easy, lots of people are obese, I guess it depends how you define a crisis.

here

There may be studies which are skewed and there may be bits of false information out there, but there is also real info out there. I do think there is a crisis and it will take more than a few supermarkets discounting apples, but I do think supermarkets have a part to play, IMHO.

(And I love Freddos and am happy for my kids to have them. I think the big picture is that of they cost 1p more and that 1p went into the NHS no parent is doing to say you can't have one, but maybe there would some degree fewer consumed and all those 1ps would add up... plus it is not just individual kids chocs, I am thinking of all the cakes and pasteries which are produced so cheaply - I am thinking of myself as consumer too). And I think the issues you are raising are a much wider picture. When I lived in Singapore OI noticed that swimming pools and sports facilities were relatively cheap. Food was too, but was also relatively healthy. Alcohol was very expensive. Guess what, people were generally slim. (But i do miss that lovely food.)

HelenaDove totally agree it is terrible so may rely on food banks and their non fresh/healthy produce.

What is really worrying is the long term health of people who have had to use food banks for a length of time. No one should be having to go through this in the 21st century THIS should be the outrage that some people are forced to live on carbs and sugar and thats when they can get food at all.

I wonder if any of the people who think the sugar tax is a bad idea spend any time in amputee clinics, as I often do. It is utterly depressing and the fact there are children in the UK who will inevitably end up in these places because of their excessive sugar consumption is a terrible price for them to pay.
I understand that many people may not like JO because he's rich or patronising but I think he is making an important point here.
The posters who are making comments about his appearance particularly his speech impediment are disgraceful. What a bunch of playground bullies you lot are.

I'd have a lot more respect for JO if he was at the foodbanks cooking bacon and eggs or salmon and green veg for people, but that isn't going to make him even richer than he already is.

pirate there are many of us on this thread who havent mentioned his appearance or speech impediment at all.

I agree with better labelling, i don't agree with the bloody tax though!
Some people are healthy but enjoy sugary treats, things like pop.
At the moment i am not wealthy can i not make the right decisions?
I drink coke due to the fact im suffering with horrendous headaches migraines and sickness. ( most likely will do for good few years or rest of my life) It's the only drink that actually makes me feel marginally better.
I struggle to pay for things as it is.
However i also did this when i was actually earning good money!
Then there's people who do actually need certain ( using drinks as an example) sugary drinks to be kept in emergencies.
Diabetics for hypos, will they be taxing lucozade? They contain an awful lot of sugar....
I've reduced shopping with tesco as they stopped selling fullfat Ribeana.
I also have a friend who has to eat a lot of high fat foods as she struggled to maintain her weight.
I'd rather fresh fruit and veg were cheaper and more education done on eating the right foods and treats in moderation.
I love my fresh fruit but i can spend nearly a tenner just on a few things.
People are already struggling to feed their families anyway i can see more people at food banks.
Especially with welfare cuts.

Helena Some people on this, and another thread about JO, have made unpleasant remarks about his speech impediment. I think that's very inappropriate.

Fair enough Pirate.

Jamie Oliver has made many unpleasant comments about the poor, disadvantaged and voiceless over the years and had made his fortune on the back of them. I don't think he'll be crying into his caviar any time soon.

Yes i remember on the webchat he seemed to backtrack on using "flatscreen tvs" as a stereotype but then just substituted it for smartphones when on the radio later that same week.

Has he really Charity? I'm sure he's a big not who can stand up for himself but as he's not here and wealth or no wealth is a real person with real feelings and a family who probably read the comments made about him I feel obliged to defend him to some extend. I have never personally read about him slagging off the 'poor.' Pp have referred to him a fat tongued cunt. For gods sake, slag off his ideas, his books and his business methods by all means but I wouldn't listen to that shit in RL and say nothing so I won't in here either. If some people don't like that then tough fucking shit.

I completely agree with you pirate though that there is no need to take the piss out of the way he speaks.

Yes he has. Several times. He would dismiss my wonderful disabled DS as a feckless lazy scrounger.

But I do apologise for the reference to his tongue. It was unnecessary. The rest of it stands, however.

Charity why do you say .. made his fortune on the back of them (the poor) (genuine question).

I am not sure any one answer will be the answer and, for me, it does not need to be Jamie Spearheading anything. I would rather a genuine food hero who had gone from obese to slim did the spearheading, or someone like Jack Monroe who has actually lived on a low income.

As I said up thread about the carrier bags, it is not just about the amount of money but rather recognising that everything has a cost. I really think bottled water should cost a lot more. Not because I don't want people to be able to buy it if they need it, but because it is environmentally very bad. Better for shops to sell cheap reusable bottles which people can fill from home.

Booyaka rather than poorer people being stuck with only food for social activities how about better cheaper facilities for everyone. Especially facilities that promote good health, sports, water sports, etc etc. Tax on high sugar high fat foods could go towards that. Why not write to Jamie Oliver with your own thoughts and ideas? If you get on TV, please say "Italiangreyhound made me do it!"

Must go to bed! Night all.

Pirate he vilified poor people for being unhealthy while trying to sell that book two years ago and then admitted that it wasnt even aimed at them.

So why did he mention them then. That got a lot of peoples backs up because it felt like he was using a section of society who cant fight back for promotional reasons. And those reasons did look pretty dubious when he admitted it wasnt even aimed at them.