To think that the decision of the education secretary to sanction the proposed grammar annexe will lead to a number of grammar schools applying for annexes.

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This is a conterversial subject, particulary on mumsnet about whether grammar schools aid social mobilty. This however is surely a victory for the parents of Sevonoaks. They have campaigned for at least the same opportunity of grammar school education as other towns in a selective county.

I personally think it is fair and correct, that parents are able to ask for a type of school they believe to be in the interest of their children. That includes selective, academy or religous schools.

I am wondering though whether now that a way of getting through legal problems about expanding selective schools, there will be a flury of applications from other grammar schools.

" V high percentage of FSM at the grammars here, and they are a real opportunity to get on here."

What sort of %age?

There's only ever been one poster who was honest enough to say that she wanted her children in grammar schools because she didn't want them queuing for lunch with 'thick children" I really admired her for it.

Most people don't want their kids to repeat their own experience of school where being clever was frowned on and lessons were disrupted by those who didn't want to learn.

That is exactly what grammars schools are in practice, though obviously not in theory. You only have to look at the FSM stats.

"Even when the options were a bit more local than that kids are still travelling at least ten miles in one direction to grammar school, some many more and with journeys more difficult than many adult commutes."

It is not uncommon for children as young as 5 to have to travel 30 miles to their nearest special school.

Thing is a new grammar in Kent is not the same as anywhere else in the country - because Kent is already a fully selective county.

The only other selective county, bucks, has plenty of grammar schools, in sensible places.

So Sevenoaks was a bit of a one off. Where all children sat the 11+ but then couldn't really be offered a suitable place.

To defend stratter5 here, we qualify for FSM and my dc has been awarded a grammar school place in a VERY MC area.

Kids like ours are what the grammar system was designed for. To help local kids who can't afford a private education get a good academic schooling. That's who it should remain for.

Well, the first Lincolnshire grammar I looked at had less than 2% currently eligible for free school meals. Stratters, which is the one with very high FSM?

And I didn't say middle class, I said middle income, BR, which includes the working class. You are, I am afraid, projecting your own prejudices onto my post.

For what it's worth my ideal system would be that all schools are good schools and all schools are state schools, no faith schools, no grammar schools and no private schools. However in the current system, in an area that has grammar schools, kids shouldn't have to travel across the county to go to one.

Absolutely. But a positive learning environment is something all children need, not just the brightest. And it is not only the less academic that can be disruptive is it?

Grammar Schools shouldn't be MC ghettos but neither should they be WC ghettos.

I suppose I am a bit jaundiced by the Kent/Bexley situation. I am on the borders of both so not actually in a selective area. But from what I can see (and what friends with older children report), what happens a lot here is that people pay for private prep schools for their kids with sole aim of getting them through the 11+ (and tutoring them in the process) so as to avoid having to pay secondary school fees.

I don't blame anyone personally for doing this, but I can see that it defeats the purpose of the reason behind grammars and mean that it is not the brightest who are getting in regardless of income, it is those whose parents can afford to pay to get them through the exam.

Obviously this is a generalisation and some bright but poor, and untutored children of all income brackets, do get in, but it is common enough to be a problem.

Frozen just spent the weekend with friends in the West Midlands. Situation is exactly as you describe. Lot of well off people hand-wringing and deploring it, but plenty of careful tutoring (on top of pre-prep!) and a private secondary place lined up in case it does all go wrong.

Sorry to harp on, starters, but unless I'm reading it wrong, your "V high percentage of FsM seems to be about 5%. Which Is better than 0%, like our local grammar, but nothing to write home about!

After all, private education is so expensive these days and you can't really have John and Jemima being educated with the lower classes now, can we? Middle class privilage is very important and must be defended.

What you are defending there, by the way, is the privilege of the upper and upper middle classes to maintain the social elite. Let's look at most of the politicians in major roles in government and opposition over the last 20 years as a case in point. Let's look at the judiciary, press and broadcast journalists and actors. Very, very few have not come from the upper and upper middle classes- i.e. the very wealthy and connected, not the middle income middle class or working class.

The middle and working classes have very few privileges these days as this government is trying to obliterate them and create a small elite and then lots of poorly paid wage slaves to work for them- an underclass.

Social mobility isn't just about getting those from the bottom to the middle or top, it should be about getting from the middle - the majority - to the top. Society needs to work for the majority as well as giving more help to the smaller number who need additional assistance.

Absolutely. But a positive learning environment is something all children need, not just the brightest. And it is not only the less academic that can be disruptive is it?

No indeed. The ones who disrupted my learning were pretty bright kids. What they were, 99.9% of the time though, unfortunately were boys.

Which is another reason why parents of girls like the grammars.

Pearpotter, your theory is fine as a theory but in practice what it means is that in getting the middle to the top, those who are below the middle get squashed down further. If grammar schools are creaming off the most academic (or best tutored) children at 10, the rest go to schools without a top set (or a very reduced one). These are effectively secondary moderns (this is a recognised problem in places like Kent and Bexley). As a result, those children who fail the 11+ for whatever reason but may blossom academically later on in their education have nowhere to go - they get squashed down and potentially never achieve their full potential.

This was the theory behind a truly comprehensive system. It allows children to be taught in the same place but in ability groups which would allow for movement between them as they get older and develop academically or in other ways. In areas which are truly non-selective, my understanding is that this can work very well. Of course, the schools have be run well with good discipline etc etc so once again we are back to an ideal world.

Just seen your post about boys pearpotter. I must admit, as the parent of a girl, the option of single sex education is something I do feel quite strongly about for a number of reasons including the disruption point. What worries me more than anything is that around me more and more schools are mixed and getting my daughter into an all girls secondary is possibly going to be a real issue.

Yes I agree about the less academic being left behind- again I'm not for grammars, I would like a fully comprehensive system, all good schools, no grammars, no private schools, no faith schools. But I wanted to set out what the benefits of grammars are, such as they are.

I also think Knole Academy will be fine regardless of the grammar annex- it has an excellent head and top facilities. Kids and parents choose to go there when they have passed the Kent Test and come from outside the area to do so, not just from Sevenoaks. I think it will continue to be oversubscribed.

I think to use the FSM rate as the only way of deciding , which famiies are well off and which are not is very disingenuous .

This is why i think it is slighty unfair , to pick grammar schools up on the 2 or 3% FSM rate and say they are the preserve of the middle classes.

Another important factor often overlooked , when people comment on the low level of FSM pupils at grammar schools is the distinct possibilty that many families incomes may be in the £25-30k region. This is not a middle class income and these families may be in the same finanical situations as many families whose income falls into the FSM threashold !

This of course will not show up on figures or statistics , so may give the impression that grammar schools are the total preserve of the middle classes .

Try Skegness or Boston, both v deprived areas. Although Skegness will be skewed by the boarders, many of whom are from other countries.

Lot of prejudiced projection going on here imo.

The Blair govt passed a law in the late 90s banning new grammar schools being founded. So, the only possibility is for existing grammars to build an annex in the same county.

So, this is great for Kent, and anywhere else with an existing grammar but useless for any other parents wishing for the return of grammar schools.

A bit of light relief on the topic: www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/agony-aunt/ask-holly-why-have-i-brought-back-grammar-schools-20151015102958

I see it this new one is an all girls' school to 16 (as it is an "annexe" of Weald of Kent) so presumably the boys in the area are still without a grammar? I wonder how long it will be before a boys grammar "expands" in the same way.

Stratters- Skegness has 5.8 currently eligible and Boston 3.8%. Which if they are in areas of significant social deprivation rather makes the point.

25-30 not a middle class income? Teachers, nurses, social workers are all professionals aren't they?

Do you mean upper middle class/ private school/etc?