To think if Blair , brown and sarpong obe want us to stay in the EU we should vote to leave

[Mcdotii]

This new campaign feels like its just very rich people trying to bully us into doing what suits them the best.

If most millionaire s want us to stay in sounds like a good reason to leave!

I'd rather make my mind up based on evaluation of the arguments rather than an impulsive reaction based on a dislike for certain personalities.

Wow well thought out, well reasoned argument there Op In fact I make most important decisions on the basis of what will piss off former T4 presenters.

In fact I voted Yes in the Scottish referendum solely on the grounds that it might irk Miquita Oliver slightly if he found out about it.

Have you looked at who's supporting the "out" campaign? ~ hollow laugh~

This has to be one of the stupidist OPs I've seen on AIBU and that's saying something!

This new campaign feels like its just very rich people trying to bully us into doing what suits them the best.

As opposed to the various Out campaigns?

Remind me who's backing them again?

Miquita Oliver does not have an obe, so your being a bit silly.

Where are these facts?

On the other side of the argument - Nigel Farage wants us to leave the EU and I can't stand him.
Personally I would rather make my mind up based on what I think is the right thing for the country rather than what a few politicians think.

Blair really needs to fuck off under a rock in Iraq to stop us from hearing about him again. He needs to understand no-one is taking on board anything he says as he's a joke.

I'm really swayed on Europe. I like being part of Europe, I like the European laws and I wish we had gone further society could travel throughout Europe on our driving licence. I also believe in open boarders.

Otoh I don't agree with the trade agreement and I like the pound.

So we not society**

Miquita Oliver does not have an obe, so your being a bit silly.

I'm being silly?????

Have you not heard the one about people in glass houses throwing stones.

The referendum will have vastly more effect on the future of our country than any General Election.

I hope the electorate would consider the issues rather than decide on personalities or outdated nationlism.
The most important ones:

Millions of jobs depend on the EU and easy access to it.
Some multinationals might pull out of the UK - many are downsizing and losing easy access might be the deciding factor for UK factories or branches to lose out.
If we left, the EU would probably exclude our financial services industry, on which so much of our income and tax revenue depends. Frankfurt and Paris would take much of the EU-related business.

Our main trading partners are in the EU and to continue trading with them, we would still have to follow their rules, as countries like Norway do.
Estimates are that we would still pay around 94% of the membership fees, but of course no longer have a vote in deciding the rules of the club.
The alternative would be to pay tariffs, which would make our goods uneconomical.

We would have to renegotiate our trading agreements with the rest if the world; on our own we have far less economic and political clout to do this, so we might again face higher tariffs.

UK citizens would find it much tougher to get jobs in the EU and some of those currently working and living there might have to return, increasing unemployment and increasing strain on housing, schools, hospitals.

Leaving the EU is far more different to never having joined.
Like the difference between a bitter divorce and always having been single.

So, yeah, think a bit more deeply before deciding our future.

Is anyone else else reading the thread title out in their head in the style of Frank Dobermann?

"Oi Sarpong, OBE, No!!!!"

This new campaign feels like its just very rich people trying to bully us into doing what suits them the best.

Well if that's what you are basing your vote on, whether you like who is running the campaigb, then gauld help us

BigChoc your comments all seem to be about fear. Fear of what will happen if we leave the EEC / EC / EU / the European State. There isn't much positivity, only scaremongering.

I heard someone on radio the other day make similar comments and they were slapped down with the reminder that people said similar doom & gloom things about not joining the Euro. Not joining the Euro has turned out to be absolutely the right call.

The EU is undemocratic. Why do we want to be ruled by the vested interests of the Franco-German unelected.

Oh. For goodness sake.

YANBU OP.

The campaign is being led by people who were wrong about the euro, have never admitted that they were wrong about the euro and are still stuck on their blinkered ideological fixation with the 'European project'.

Mandelson was claiming even in 2012 that there would be bad short and long-term consequences to the UK's refusal to join the euro. Wrong. Danny Alexander said in 2003 that there were ‘clear signs that staying out of the euro is harming Britain’s economy’. Tony Blair described those who were opposed to joining the euro as ‘foolish and backward’. They were wrong then and they are still wrong.

All this scaremongering completely ignores the fact that voting to remain is not a vote for the status quo: it's a vote to hand greater powers to Brussels, by 2025. There is no status quo, only 'ever closer union'. Read the Five Presidents' Report if you don't believe me: the next step is tax and spending powers for Brussels.

Being European (which I very much feel) is not the same as being in the EU The EU is a failed 20th-century solution to 20th-century problems and has already shown itself inadequate to the problems of the 21st century. It's making us poorer, less free and less democratic. Cameron's 'renegotiation' is at best cosmetic. We should be voting to leave, for prosperity, freedom and democracy.

What a stupid knee jerk reaction the OP is.
It's a complex issue which I'm sure very few people understand fully but such daft statements really do nothing to add to the debate. Personally although there are some positive reasons to leave (and some slightly head grabbing shallow ones that I think are just plain naive) , they are vastly outweighed by the benefits to staying.
My opinion comes from wide reading round the subject from a variety of sources, but obviously a knee jerk reaction based on personalities would be a better way to base my opinion on something rather important.

Threads like this are why i reallllyyy wish we weren't having a referendum

*OTheHugeManatee

YANBU OP.

The campaign is being led by people who were wrong about the euro, have never admitted that they were wrong about the euro and are still stuck on their blinkered ideological fixation with the 'European project'.

Mandelson was claiming even in 2012 that there would be bad short and long-term consequences to the UK's refusal to join the euro. Wrong. Danny Alexander said in 2003 that there were ‘clear signs that staying out of the euro is harming Britain’s economy’. Tony Blair described those who were opposed to joining the euro as ‘foolish and backward’. They were wrong then and they are still wrong.

All this scaremongering completely ignores the fact that voting to remain is not a vote for the status quo: it's a vote to hand greater powers to Brussels, by 2025. There is no status quo, only 'ever closer union'. Read the Five Presidents' Report if you don't believe me: the next step is tax and spending powers for Brussels.

Being European (which I very much feel) is not the same as being in the EU The EU is a failed 20th-century solution to 20th-century problems and has already shown itself inadequate to the problems of the 21st century. It's making us poorer, less free and less democratic. Cameron's 'renegotiation' is at best cosmetic. We should be voting to leave, for prosperity, freedom and democracy.*

What a good and articulate post. You are spot on. Wish I could like posts

What a good and articulate post. You are spot on. Wish I could like posts

It's not one I agree with most of, but it's a hell of a lot better reasoning and justification for a political position than 'I wouldn't vote for this because rich people are backing it.'

(Which would also rule out any of the Out campaigns, of course.)

We would have to renegotiate our trading agreements with the rest if the world; on our own we have far less economic and political clout to do this, so we might again face higher tariffs.

This isn't the whole truth. The truth is that in the EU 'we' aren't negotiating trade agreements; the EU is. And the UK doesn't have very much clout in the EU, what with it being 28 different nations with 28 different sets of economic interests. So what gets negotiated on our behalf by the EU often isn't really in our interests at all.

And it's nonsense about the UK not having much clout. We're the world's 5th largest economy for goodness' sake. If Switzerland can negotiate a beneficial free trade agreement with China, what's all this scaremongering about the UK being too small and weak and puny to do the same?

Outside the EU, we can take our own seat on the WTO; inside it, we have very little control over what gets decided on our behalf. We have less 'clout' whilst in the EU than we would outside it.

Well said Jassy
Reasoned and intelligent argument is one thing. Ridiculous knee jerk assertions are quite another.

OTheHugeManatee your the voice of common sense! I agree we are stronger outside it and will have more clout.

For the reasons pp have stated, I believe we will be better off leaving the EU. I don't think I will be voting based on my like/dislike of those running their yes/no campaigns though.

FWIW my opposition to the EU has everything to do with wanting to live in a state that's governed in a democratically accountable way, and very little to do with nationalism and the usual ugly 'Little Englander' stereotypes that get thrown at eurosceptics.

The big-picture reasoning behind the EU, for its supporters, is roughly that 1) the nation state should be encouraged to wither away as nations just encourage ugly xenophobia and besides the nation state is obsolete in an age of globalisation, and 2) we need larger trading blocs to cope with the new economic realities of the modern age.

To 1) I say: that's a long and complex debate, but the biggest objection I have to the idea of abandoning nation states is that if we're not careful we'll end up abandoning democracy as well. If it is indeed true that the age of the nation state is over, we should be explicitly debating what should replace it, and not sleepwalking into a situation where that's being decided for us by a bunch of Commissioners we can't even elect let alone get rid of.

To 2) I say: the EU's track record so far doesn't fill me with confidence. Its shocking handling of the eurozone crisis (50% youth unemployment in Spain, anyone?) and the fact that pretty much every region in the world is now growing again, except the EU suggests that even if it were true that we need larger trading blocs, the EU is doing a pretty poor job of being that bloc.

Proponents of the EU say that economically we'd suffer outside it. But the EU's record of having a positive effect on members' economies is just not that great. Visit Greece if you're unconvinced. And I'm just not sold on the idea that 28 nations, with often conflicting interests, can act quickly and decisively to address common challenges and crises as they come up. Witness how rapidly the refugee crisis disintegrated from 'European solidarity' to national interests again once the chips were down.

The EU was a great idea, and I'm 100% behind the ideals it represents, or at least that it represented. But its track record of delivery is poor and getting worse. I'm just not convinced that it's worth giving up the sovereignty of our own Parliament to a supranational institution that's shown itself so bad at delivering.