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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To keep these clothes that weren't charged for?

465 replies

MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 20:03

Yesterday I went shopping and picked up a new coat each for the dc (at Matalan if it's relevant)- total cost was £45.

I got to the till, went in my bag and didn't have my purse Angry Blush
So I apologised, said i'd nip home and the man on the till put them behind the counter for me.

Returned a couple of hours later and picked up some packs of pants by the till when I was queuing, which were a fiver. Handed them over and asked for the coats behind the till that had been put by for me (this was a woman). She put everything in a bag for me, I paid with my card and out I went.

Anyway, it's only tonight I've pulled them out of the bag along with the receipt - and I have a receipt for £5.05 (the pants and a 5p bag charge). The coats weren't charged for. I didn't even check the amount at the checkout, just stuck my card in and paid.

WWYD? I feel really guilty even though it wasn't my fault. I don't know if the second person who served me just made a mistake or thought maybe they were already paid for (but why would they be?!). They've not got security tags on so one of them must have taken them off.

So keep and look at it as good luck or be honest and go back and pay for them? Opinion is currently divided in my house!

OP posts:
ShowOfHands · 29/09/2015 22:11

You don't get to disagree. It is fact, not personal opinion.

You accidentally leaving the shop is completely irrelevant.

Do you know that you have items you didn't pay for? Yes. If you keep them, you've fulfilled the definition of theft.

Norfolknway · 29/09/2015 22:12

Keep them. Today, you won Grin

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:13

Ontheholidays - no, and it doesn't really concern me tbh.

I highly doubt that Matalan or a police officer are going to contact MN and go through all the bother and legal wrangles of tracing my IP address (as MN have none of my real details other than my email) to track me down over a pair of coats in this situation.

Also considering the fact that I could be a 65 year old childless man, sitting and scratching his balls and making it all up for fun - as could any of us.

OP posts:
LadyLonely1 · 29/09/2015 22:13

Whilst you have not stolen, keeping it would be as if you did. I think it's important to do the right thing where we can. It doesn't matter if it's a large store, or they won't miss it, it's about you And how you deal with it.
If it was me I wouldn't feel right if my dc were wearing the clothes knowing how I got it. Just give the manager a call tomorrow and explain, maybe they will tell you to keep it who knows. It's just the right thing to do.

MackerelOfFact · 29/09/2015 22:14

You could post something on their Facebook page about being accidentally not charged for two children's coats and asking what you should do.

Frankly I think they're unlikely to tell you to take them back and pay for them so publicly because it does make them look a bit shit.

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:14

You don't get to disagree

You made me snort my wine.

I apologise, of course, for disagreeing. Please pardon me.

OP posts:
revealall · 29/09/2015 22:15

I don't think it's stealing - it's an honest mistake by both parties.
Op can't return at this time of night even if she wanted to.
How to deal with the mistake? Phone and ask them.

Do not walk back into the shop with two coats and no receipt. What if the alarm goes off for some other reason? You could be in real trouble.
Agree with everyone who said they need to sort it. Even if you do pay it will still cost you to have to go back to the shop to sort it.

Senpai · 29/09/2015 22:17

Op have you not thought about the fact that you don't know what every poster on MN does for a living you could have someone posting on your thread that's high up within the Matalans company or a Police Officer.

Not that I'm team OP on this, but the police aren't going to go through the trouble of tracking someone down via IP address over a pair of coats unless a shop lifting report has been filed. They'd have to do an investigation at the store first.

greenfolder · 29/09/2015 22:18

I am a complete hypocrite and have a total map of shops and circumstances I would and have.
Given change from a tenner rather than a fiver at the coffee shop? Would not hesitate to hand it back
Under charged by £100 in ikea? Result.
Business banking I local branch (back in the day) £100 to much? Back it goes cos some poor girl has to make it balance

ShowOfHands · 29/09/2015 22:19

You are misunderstanding me.

My point was, that it's breaking the law pure and simple.

"I disagree" doesn't make it any less true. You can justify it however you like, but the law isn't something we all get to have a personal opinion on when it applies to our own personal circumstances.

You can't say "I disagree with the law being 60" on this road. It's black and white.

As I said in my first post on here and as I always say on these threads, you can do what you want. You can't, however, argue that it's okay or that it's only a big corporation or you don't agree with the law.

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:19

What would you do here greenfolder?

OP posts:
AnchorDownDeepBreath · 29/09/2015 22:19

Now that you have appropriated the property, whether dishonestly or not, you have intent to deprive Matalan of them permanently. So, at this point, you have dishonestly appropriated (because you didn't pay, intentionally or not) and you are permanently depriving Matalan, so this is theft.

You could argue that you appropriated them in good faith, but you'd need to return them or pay for them to not permanently deprive Matalan, and as soon as you choose to deprive them, you are aware that you have dishonestly appropriated them and you are not doing anything about it. It's not in good faith anymore, because you know of the error.

Legally you'd be on a sticky wicket claiming it was in good faith anyway, because it would have appeared on the card machine, but that's likely to be irrelevant. It's your actions now that make it theft (Or not).

It's your decision, but that's the law.

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:21

You can't, however, argue that it's okay or that it's only a big corporation or you don't agree with the law

I'm not.

I'm arguing with your misuse of the term 'dishonestly appropriate'.

OP posts:
ShowOfHands · 29/09/2015 22:22

It's not misuse.

Did you

Appropriate honestly (paying for the goods)
Appropriate dishonestly (not paying for the goods)

MoonSandwich · 29/09/2015 22:25

I think the discussion about theft isn't helping. The OP is not going to get done for theft.

What is relevant is the OPs morals.

OP, in your op you asked

WWYD? I feel really guilty even though it wasn't my fault

so the question is whether you feel £50 worth of 'really guilty'

ShowOfHands · 29/09/2015 22:28

MoonSandwich, that was precisely my original point. As I said, keep it or don't keep it, my opinion is that either your moral codes allow you to or don't. I just don't like the justification of it.

For good info thoughGrin:

From the Theft Act of 1968

"“Appropriates”.

(1)Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner

(2)Where property or a right or interest in property is or purports to be transferred for value to a person acting in good faith, no later assumption by him of rights which he believed himself to be acquiring shall, by reason of any defect in the transferor’s title, amount to theft of the property.

greenfolder · 29/09/2015 22:29

I would probably think result tbh. People are right, it is black and white. It is not honest or right to keep and not pay. But what would I do here? More likely than not I would keep them

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:29

ShowOfHands you could just as easily say 'Did you...'

Appropriate honestly (leave with goods in good faith that they were paid for)

Appropriate dishonestly (leave with goods knowing they were not paid for)

The mens rea is pretty much the be all and end all for many crimes - so no, I don't think your use of the terms is correct, nor do I think it would stand up in Court.

Anyway, like a pp said - nit picking over language isn't really the point. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

OP posts:
TamaraLamara · 29/09/2015 22:29

Have you decided what you're going to do, OP?

Floggingmolly · 29/09/2015 22:30

so me leaving the shop, unaware that I'd not paid due to their fuckup is me being dishonest?
You're being extremely disingenuous , op. You know perfectly well the dishonesty relates to your plan to keep the items, knowing you haven't paid for them.
Why not just keep them and revel in your nasty little escapade, instead of trying to salve your conscience by getting anonymous strangers on the Internet to tell you it's ok??
It's not ok, but you'll do it anyway.

ShowOfHands · 29/09/2015 22:32

I've directly copy and pasted the legal definition for appropriation with regards to theft for you. It's freely available along with all other legislation.

It's nothing to do with agreeing to disagree.

It can and does stand up in court all the time. Because it's the law.

It doesn't matter that you didn't realise at the time.

Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:34

Show of Hands, that act has largely been replaced, and most of the terms within it redefined by the Fraud something-or-other act of about ten years ago (google it - I CBA).

So if you're going to quote legislation at me, at least quote the correct one.

OP posts:
Original poster
MinecraftWonder · 29/09/2015 22:36

just keep them and revel in your nasty little escapade

Good grief - calm down. Has someone stolen a pair of coats from you or something to make you take it so much to heart? Hmm

OP posts:
KurriKurri · 29/09/2015 22:36

I'd take it back - otherwise you are stealing it, I think knowing you are stealing something is quite simple really - no need for a load of angst, just do the right thing.

Whether you disapprove of Matalan being a big corporation, or using slave labour or whatever is irrelevant - the time for that moral debate is before you decide to shop there, not after you have failed to pay for some coats.

SistersOfPercy · 29/09/2015 22:39

My 80 year old mum caught two buses to morrisons once as she had forgotten to put a tub of butter through the till. Two hour round trip.
I'm bloody proud of her honesty and I know how disappointed she'd be in me if I wasnt as honest as her. She raised me to do the right thing regardless of how much profit the company makes and regardless whether it be coats or a £1.50 tub of butter. Thankfully my children also share this opinion.