AIBU to swap from a catholic church to a Church of England Church

[fishfacedcow]

For services and such?

Is it a big deal?

I converted to the C o E from RC as an adult, and I go to an evangelical church. Closer to people, values women, priests can marry or be gay, any babptised Christian is invited to take communion, and the singing worshipping is more lively. I do cringe at the odd hysterical display of fervour but most people behave themselves in our church lol

I switched from Roman Catholicism to Scottish Episcopalianism (the Anglican Church in Scotland). I was baptised as an RC, and had my First Communion and everything, but my parents were always very lax and we all stopped going to Mass when I was about 10 or 11.

When I went off to university I felt I wanted to go back to church, but I felt very far away from the Catholic Church by then, and not really able to accommodate the position on a lot of things. So I started to going to an Anglican church instead, and was eventually formally confirmed there (as I hadn't been confirmed as an RC). I go to a very Anglo-Catholic church now, one that is very pro-women and LGBT people, and it suits me very well.

It's pretty clear so far that almost noone in this thread knows what Catholics practice and believe. Fishfacedcow I'm sorry your local Catholic Church did not feel welcoming to you but you can be a parishioner at any Catholic church of your choice. Before you leave I would make sure you understand what you are leaving and that you really know and understand what Catholics believe. One way to do this would be to approach a friendly Catholic priest and explain that you are seriously considering leaving and would like to talk.

Another would be to attend RCIA classes - which is the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. Many adults decide to become Catholics and the RCIA process helps them ask all the questions they would like and teaches what the church teaches so they can make a free decision about entering the church. RCIA classes usually are starting at this time of year so you should be able to call around and find one to attend locally. You will meet plenty of devout and friendly Catholics who are catechists (teachers) who can help you explore your concerns and questions.

Thing is, if you asked an awful lot of 'normal' catholics to do RCIA, they'd run for the hills!

What the Catholic Church says Catholics practice and believe, and what the laity actually practice and believe are two very different things!

The RCIA asks you to say something like 'I believe everything the Catholic Church states and proclaims to be true', and to be honest, that includes a lot of shite almost no normal person in the pew would sign up to, or else they're much luckier with natural family planning than I ever was!

The RCIA has an early stage when inquirers can ask all their questions. I am assuming fishfacedcow that you have received all the sacraments of initiation: Baptism, First Holy Communion and Confirmation but may not have been catechised or evangelised - if you are not sure what the church teaches or who Jesus is for example. RCIA is ann obvious forum for help to ask and explore those questions. You do not need to go through the whole process if you are already a Catholic.

There will be many other Catholics who would love to welcome you and share their faith but as you have not been involved in a community for quite a while I am suggesting straightforward ways to get connected.

Jenny Do you have links or more information about Anglican clergy supporting the death penalty for homosexuality? The information I have says that they opposed the death penalty.

The Anglican Communion is organised completely differently to the Roman Catholic Church. It is a collection of independent churches spread across the world who agree on the basics but do have quite major differences of opinion. There is, by and large, a split between the more liberal members such as the C of E, Scottish Episcopal Church, and churches in Aus, NZ, Canada and southern Africa on the one hand, and Anglicans in places like Uganda and Nigeria on the other. To say the latter have a dim view of homosexuality would be understating it, but that would make them no different to the local Roman Catholics.

Whether there is ultimately a split between the two factions remains to be seen.

Egosumquisum

I'd love to show the Horrible Histories version of how Henry VIII started the CofE. He goes on "Start a new church.com"

Ancient history, but the Anglican Church as we know it (ie, broad in its doctrines, more interested in outward observance than private belief) is really Elizabeth I's creation, not Henry's. And nothing was 'stolen' by Henry. The church in England was always English. All Henry did was have Parliament remove the Pope's jurisdiction over it.

SanityClause

Aren't all religions "made up", though?

Speaking as an Anglican, yes of course they are. They are human interpretations of what we believe about the divine. Is there a problem with this? .

If I could sum up the difference between the RCs and Anglicans it is that the Anglicans are happy to admit they get stuff wrong. That's why I couldn't in good conscience be RC, although I do look enviously at the community life their churches offer where I am.

In my experience, the 'devout and friendly Catholics' that run RCIA know very little about other traditions, so by all means, attend RCIA if you want to find out more about Catholicism, and if you wish to stay in the Catholic Church, that could be a good plan. They know a lot about what they think the Church teaches. They can be very insistent, even when presented with encyclicals disproving what they state, in my experience.

However, I would take anything they say about what Anglicans believe with a huge pinch of salt, I've heard some real guff spouted.

So, if you want to go to Catholic church, go there. If you want to go to Anglican church, go there. I would emphatically say it's not a Big Deal unless you want it to be. I really hope God is worrying about the bigger stuff.

We have people who would describe themselves as Catholic who cone to our (middle to low)C of E. They just preferred the feel of our church the the local Catholics.
No one has any issues with it, in fact I only know a couple of them because of a discussion on local churches we had.
Same God, different way of worshipped him.

There is a lot of misinformation about the church and also about the history of the church in the British Isles. The Catholic is one church, it is universal - as a Catholic you can attend a Catholic Church anywhere in the world and they are in unity together. That's why we can have a Pope from Poland or Argentina. No doubt it won't be long before we have a Pope from one of the African nations.

I generally find Roman Catholics in the UK some of the most misinformed about the history of the Church in the British Isles!

(Eg. "The Anglican Church was started because Henry VIII wanted a divorce." "The Celtic Church was Roman Catholic." have both been said to me. Urm, no!)

To me there is no fundamental difference, but clearly that is not how everyone feels about it!

I have been told by a CofE priest that they actually have a "higher" (whatever that means) doctrine of transubstantiation that Catholics. By which I am pretty sure he meant they believe in it.

To be fair, though, most people are misinformed, it's just Roman Catholics, rather than anyone else, often like to tell me about it.

Toad, I have absolutely no problem with people following their chosen religion.

I think it was a bit hypocritical of the poster that I quoted to sneer at a particular religion for being "made up", which is why I made the point that all religions are, in fact made up.

DH says the Catholic church is a bit like the Hotel California.

He checked out years ago. We got married in a CofE church and the first time we went to a service there, DH found it bizarre that they started with the announcements rather than straight into the sermon. He was expecting 'hellfire!' but got 'At the end of the service, Margery will be selling cream teas'.

"I generally find Roman Catholics in the UK some of the most misinformed about the history of the Church in the British Isles!"

Sweeping statement much???

Well I dunno

Loads of people don't know the history of various religions in the british isles, I'm sure it's not concentrated in members of any particular religion!

In my own experience those who I have met who facilitate RCIA are some of most thoughtful and well-informed people in the parish. They are frequently converts and they educate themselves very well about other denominations and faiths. Of course, they are ordinary people like the rest of us, volunteering their time to help others so they won!t necessarily be oracles of wisdom but they will accompany and befriend people on their journey as they search for the living God.

One of my best friends heads up an RCIA team at a church in a borough of London. She is a convert from atheism and is a civil servant in asylum for her day job, she frequently has about 30 adults who are converting each year, of all faiths and none. Last year they included a Muslim couple. Previous years she helped prepare a large group of Anglicans who were coming into the church with their vicar.

Both churches have many excellent qualities and drawbacks. For example, both provide many opportunities to get involved in the community and in charitable work, and both are full of genuinely good people.

If the Anglicans have a fault, it is trying say what we think people want them to say, rather than what our beliefs dictate. We also are to concerned about appearing to be respectable.

If the Roman Catholics have a fault, it is believing they are the One True Church, that they are Never Ever Wrong About Stuff. At an institutional level, this belief has compromised them dreadfully wrt to sexual abuse of children, and all manner of other things too: stuff was covered up because they didn't want to admit that they stuffed up so very badly.

In my experience, ground level members of both churches just get on with it as best they can. My children attend an RC school here in NZ (DW is RC). Apart from the -lack of- education on pubertal change I'm very happy with the ethos and values of the school, which I find mostly in step with my own.

I have met English people (not Catholics) who didn't even know who Henry VIII was, so I think you are right whirlpool.

The thing is strawberry that the statement you have quoted about the Anglican church is sort of arguably correct. I understand that:

a. it is arguable that the Anglican church existed before the break with Rome, but simply ceased to recognise the "Pope" (or Bishop of Rome) as it's head,

b. some would argue that the break with Rome would have happened even if Henry VIII didn't want an annulment, because of grass roots dissatisfaction with the church and Parliament asserting its will, and/or

c. the Anglican/C of E church as we know it was really started by Elizabeth.

but it is also arguable that

a. this is a fairly technical/artificial way of looking at things, when the church in England was part of the Catholic Church up to that point, and

b. It wasn't going to happen anyway and didn't happen for any other reason than Henry's desire for an annulment, as England was a deeply conservative country in terms of religion, and was one of the most unlikely countries in Europe to leave the Catholic Church at that time.

c. this also would not have happened if Henry VIII hadn't initially broken with Rome.

NB - this is nothing to do with the OP it's just strawberry's comment made me feel the need to set this out!

PS there is a horrible histories episode about Henry. He sings a song that goes "A little more reformation, a little less monasteries. I want to get my hands on all their money, please". To the tune of "A little less conversation".

And a rat holds up a sign telling him it should be fewer.

I think your first port of call should be your priest, or find a Jesuit or Franciscan and ask -- they generally have more time than parish priests, and would be well qualified to answer your questions.

You should ask all sorts of questions, about communion, about marriage, about how to go about having your marriage recognised or blessed by the RC church, and anything else that pops into your head.

There are fundamental differences between the RC church and the CoE.
The important ones centre around the Eucharist, faith vs works, apostolic succession, sola scriptura vs prima scriptura, the place of Mary, and the understanding of what sacraments are. And more.

Also recent historical studies ("The Stripping of the Altars" Professor Eamonn Duffy) have shown evidence of a very lively and active Catholic faith on the part of the ordinary people of Britain before Henry changed the structure of the church. It can be argued that they was in fact no large popular movement wanting to abandon the Pope or change any teachings of the church. The people who were served very well by the break with Rome were the upper classes who were able to perform huge land grabs of what were church lands (farmed and managed by the local populations) which they still hold to this day.

The changes were from the top down, imposed from on high.

No. The only official difference is whether your Bishop is in communion with Rome. What makes someone a Catholic or not (ie. Anglican or anything else) is whether they are in communion with a Bishop who is in communion with Rome.

Doctrines on the Eucharist, faith vs works, apostolic succession, sola scriptura vs prima scriptura, the place of Mary, and the understanding of what sacraments are not what divides Catholics and Anglicans.

About the break with Rome:

The point to note is that there was a church in England from about 500 AD onwards and by and large it was left to get on with stuff. It built its own churches that locals and paid for and maintained, and it had its own bishops, abbots and so on. The actual ownership of property and right to collect tithes were completely local matters too. Probably ownership of church property would have been with the local bishop or (in the case of monasteries) the abbot.

The Pope had really nothing to do with any of this, although over the subsequent few hundred years the powers of the Pope increased to the point that by 1500 he had the right to collect taxes off the church in England and had the right to hear appeals on matters of ecclesiastical law from the church courts in England. There was also a long-running stoush with the monarchy about jurisdiction over priests who committed crimes, and the jurisdiction of civil (ie, non-ecclesiastical courts) generally. Obviously the Pope also had authority in respect of what the church believed, but it wasn't anything like as established or enforced as it was in the post-Reformation Roman Catholic Church.

In some ways, the situation was similar to that with the EU now. All Henry did was a) remove the right of appeal to the Pope and b) replace the Pope's authority over the church with his own.

FWIW he'd have got is annulment from the Pope if it wasn't for the fact that Catherine of Aragon's uncle was the Emperor Charles V, whose troops had recently mutinied, sacked Rome, and taken the Pope prisoner.

While it's true that England was pretty conservative in the 1530s, that changed very, very quickly indeed.

I don't disagree things were top down, most politics is.