Horrid playground type situation among adult friends - help! How do I resolve it?

[magnificatAnimaMea]

For the first time in my entire life I've found myself in the position of popular playground ringleader turning away the unpopular. I have no idea how to handle it, having always previously been in the unpopular turned-away position, or the keeping-heads-down-in-gang position.

I have a lot of friends who sing fairly seriously, though relatively few of them are professionals. That's relevant because they are highly motivated, but are also extremely busy with other things - so they won't say yes to everything they're asked to be part of.

I started talking to a few of them about maybe getting together for a few concerts next year to do some specific pieces that I've always wanted to do. It's difficult, very exposed music where wrong notes, poor tuning, or voice parts dropping out will wreck it for everyone.

The word got around a bit, and people have started asking if they can be involved in the project.

Two very good friends have each asked if they can join in - they are members of the same groups as I am, and very good friends of mine, so I know what they're like. One is always too busy for rehearsals and ends up learning the music the day of the concert, no matter what or when the concert is. Thus, she never really knows the music well, and sings it badly because she hasn't had time to get to know how to sing it well. She could do well if she had time, but she probably never will find the time. The other is assiduous in turning up to rehearsals and learning music, but just honestly sings really horribly - very flat, nasal tone, which affects her ability to sing in tune. She's a lovely person to have around in every possible way other than her singing voice.

They are two of my closest friends, but I would find it so much easier if they weren't involved in this, and so would everyone else. Unless they both change from what they've been doing consistently for the last 15 years, they'll mess up something that could be really good.

How does one say tactfully "no", or alternatively, tactfully, "only if you learn the music/ learn to sing in tune"?

Lay down ground rules at the get go that not turning up for rehearsals (applicable to everyone) will mean they lose their place.

Get a couple of others to form an audition panel with you and audition everyone for inclusion in the group (because you've had a lot of applications and need to decide).

Just a thought.

Thanks Busyworkingmum71. Slight worry is that most of the people i've asked would normally be auditioning me, not me them, and they'd be able to do a concert on about 2 rehearsals - i was planning 6 - so these two friends are definitely going to see through the "need" for auditions and rehearsal compliance.

Hmm. I really should've seen this coming, but stupidly didn't.

This isn't about popularity or you having to turn away the unpopular so don't worry about that. This isn't a 'playground' situation as you have perfectly reasonable arguments as to why these women shouldn't be involved.

I think the best thing is to be as honest as possible. Tell friend A that it is a complex piece and that commitment to rehearsalsee is needed; anyone missing one won't take part.
Tell friend B that this particular piece of music isn't suited to her voice and a few others too. Maybe include a piece in the concert that can carry a few weaker voices?

Are you, or anyone else in the group, able to coach the flat-singing one a bit? Has she ever had lessons/training? It sounds as if some technique could make quite a difference to her.
The other friend is less of a problem - have a general rule that whoever misses more then one of the 6 rehearsals without an extremely good reason can't take part. She can't legitimately complain about that.

You have my sympathy. FWIW if I heard of something like this happening I would wait to be asked - I've been involved in this sort of thing quite a bit and know that whoever is organising knows what they need and likes to get the right people. Asking to be involved might give rise to the potential for just this kind of awkwardness, for a number of reasons.
I do think you probably, considering the nature of the music, would be better having slightly more people than you actually need for each part - people do completely lose their voices on the day (ask me now I know!).

I think your 'friends' are being rather shit here - you have a project going and they want to horn in without being asked. I would never do that to a friend, it puts them in a terrible position. In your shoes I'd be blunt and say this isn't a project for everyone, you've chosen carefully based on what's needed. Maybe suggest doing some carol singing for charity at Christmas?

Hahaha in terms of the second friend why would a grown woman who can't sing want to publicly look a bit daft? Beggars belief Just say no op they are needy, jealous and trying to muscle in. I agree it is a playground situation because they are behaving like children. I can think of a few women like this, I avoid at all costs.

I think your problem is that you're seeing this in terms of 'popular' and 'unpopular' when actually it's about putting together a group of people to do something. It has to be the right people - that's not about personalities or who's popular, it's about who's right for the group.

You need to decline these volunteers gently and firmly while making it clear that it's really not about them as a person. Tell them you've already chosen your group and them joining will 'upset the balance of voices' or some such vague thing that can't be disproved and is for you to judge.

On no account tell them it's because they're flaky or tuneless

Thanks for the backup - yes I just need to grow a pair and make it clear that it's not about them as a person.

They do each self-define a bit by music, so this may come as a blow - to friend 1 that her attempts to do everything and be everything to everyone aren't always as successful as she thinks; and to friend 2 that she may be enthusiastic and nerdy about this music but it doesn't make up for not actually having a clue what's going on musically, nor the ability to judge whether you're doing it right...

tobysmum77 friend 2 absolutely loves this music (probably more than she loves her kids sometimes...). She genuinely has no idea how unmusical she is, or that she is (despite being highly educated and intelligent in other areas) the weakest link in a pretty weak chamber choir, who is placed at the back and forcibly drowned out by others. So she has no idea about publically looking daft when not in a choir that can swamp what she sounds like

Heteronormativehaybales - good point about asking more people than needed.
We need no more than 2 per part and the music is only in 8 parts, so I've still got more than enough... particularly of altos, given the male-female overlap there, and friend 1 & 2 are both altos.

Honestly? I'd just roll with it. I think you are being a bit precious about it. I'd have a chat to the friend who doesn't turn up to rehearsals to say that you'd LOVE to have her in there but she must ABSOLUTELY promise that she is going to come to rehearsals, and you know how bad she is at that, otherwise you will kick her off it.... but say it nicely and then really encourage her to come to a couple. Doesn't sound like she needs to come to 6 to do OK. And the other friend, I'd either just suck it up, or if it really really is that important to you (really?? it wouldn't be to me), then I guess I'd consider getting a voice coach in for a rehearsal or two with the instructions that she's to manage that women's voice and let her hear how it doesn't work. But honestly, I don't think I'd do that just for the sort of event you're describing - its how I'd manage a training issue at work, not in a social context. In a social context I'd just roll with it.

You know these people will ruin it, and you know exactly how, so if you don't grow a pair, and you allow them to take part, then it's 100% your fault if/when they ruin it, not theirs. Just say no.

Alanna - TBH you're probably right in the long run, though some of the other singers take their singing seriously enough that they will regard having these two present as a potentially damaging loss of credibility.

Voice coach wouldn't be likely to help much - friend 2 really is pretty bad.

Listen to the first section of this and imagine the top line sung by someone who doesn't know it or is out of tune...

(NB they're in a different key from the original - up a 3rd? the top line is an alto line normally)

I feel your pain.
A few years ago I was asked to prepare a song with a small group of women for the funeral of a friend of ours. I personally asked 8 people who were close to her and also who could sing well and also who knew the song already, because we were only going to be able to have a short practice. We are all members of the same church choir and we were in the church discretely have a run through before the funeral service when 2 other women who are also in the choir but who I hadn't asked because they're not very good singers walked in to the room and joined in.
I felt terrible but I had to ask them to leave.
You're friends are cheeky to ask to be involved. You'll just have to be strong and blunt and tell them they can't be involved.
Also I have a friend who thinks she is a much better singer than she is. It's tricky.

can't you just say. Oh what a shame, I would have loved to have you involved but you're just too late, I'm up to maximum.

Say to friend 2 that her voice is too distinctive for the blended sound that you require for the concert. Double edged compliment that!

I belong to a choir where we have two distinct levels.
Weekly rehearsals fun can turn up intermittently and these have big group amateur type performances where it is for fun and you can blag it a bit.
There are then semi-professional performances where you have to be able to musically cut it ( we apply and are told whether we have been selected, but not why) and have to be able to attend the rehearsals ( no rehearsal no pervormance rule).
We are all adults and understand that for the semiprofessional stuff we are often supporting professional musicians we have to be able and suited and prepared to make the commitment.

It's absolutely gorgeous music, and you have my sympathy, as I grew up going to church with a 'choir' who massacred various versions of the Ave Verum weekly. (that's a cringe face). There were at least three people there who really couldn't sing (and no one had dared to tell them, not that they'd believe you) - a woman who sounded like she had a permanent cold, a bloke with an (ahem) under-trained baritone and another woman who sounded like Margarita Pracatan with an out-of-control vibrato. Hideous.

If you're feeling brave (or evil) you could take some recording equipment along to the auditions, record their voices and play them back. Then your friend who can't sing might actually hear that she can't sing. It's a bit brutal, though, so you really will need to grow a pair to do that. If she can't hear from the recording that she can't sing, then she shouldn't be in the choir in the first place, and needs to be managed into a more 'back-stage' sort of role, like researching the music or putting the programmes together.

I don't think it actually is a playground situation. No one is being intentionally horrible or nasty, and you are being considerate and trying not to hurt your friends' feelings. I suppose it is extremely awkward though. But I think you will just have to be kind but firm and tell them the awkward truth in as nice a way as possible. It's up to them how they react.

Holger - you're right. It is up to them, really.

wol1968 - ah yes. The sheep-like soprano who manages to turn up in every choir...

Enb76 - yes I was planning to use voice type and blending as my excuse...

thanks everyone for not saying I'm being a precious cow.

That's brilliant that you've got too many altos already (though IME it's normally the quavery/ screechy/ flat/ little boy sopranos that there are too many of, and that is really exposed).

Balance, baby, balance!

Having too many altos is the perfect get-out as far as Ms Unmusical is concerned. (FWIW I also know someone who, despite voice lessons and being the partner of a very musical bloke indeed, appears unable to sing in tune - difficult but evident )