Why can't people walking across my land just behave decently?!

[jacks11]

I don't think IABU, just need to vent.

We have just had someone come to the house demanding payment of vet bills for their dog- apparently one of my mares who has a foal at foot kicked their dog whilst they were walking through one of our fields. The dog was not on the lead (as their dog is "fine with horses"). It sounds as though it got too close to the foal for the mares liking and she defended it.

I have told him that I won't be paying for his vets bill, as it is absolutely his fault his dog got injured. He should not have had his dog off the lead around livestock for a start- regardless of how well the dog normally is with horses (or cattle/sheep etc). Secondly, we have signs on the gates to the fields with mares with foals (basically says "warning mares with foals at foot. Can be unpredictable") as they can act be unpredictable if they feel their foals are being threatened (even if that is not the intention of the person or dog etc). Therefore he should have been aware of the risk he is taking walking through that paddock. The mares are fine with us, but that is because they know and trust us (and we act sensibly around them).

Not only that but there is a perfectly serviceable right of way around these fields which we have ensured are kept clear and passible- we are obliged to do so. Therefore I cannot see a single reason for walking through these fields, other than preference or because it is more direct route to the woodlands and hill routes near us.

I am so fed up with people not being respectful of our land, or careful with regards to our livestock. Many times during the summer (at least once per week) I have found gates not closed/locked properly, and on a few occasions the gates wide open with stock (not the horses) getting loose. We have signs up around the fields where the livestock are more likely to be unpredictable/ dangerous, but it doesn't seem to stop people traipsing through them. Some of these people are locals, some tourists/walkers. I don't think one group is much worse then the other.

We have found litter too. On one occasion we discovered a family having a nice picnic lunch in the upper paddock- it does have a nice view but is well off the right of way- and I also discovered their left overs afterwards. It's just so frustrating- there is no law of trespass in Scotland so can't stop people roaming very easily, but it makes me so angry that a significant minority just don't follow even basic standards of common sense (i.e. not walking through a herd of cattle with new calves) or decency (i.e. preferably use the provided right of way path or at least making sure you shut gates behind you if you do go through our fields).

I feel better for the vent.

eat

Yes, he did after arguing with me for quite a while. Eventually I said to him he either accepted what I was saying or sent me a letter via his solicitor. He humphed a bit, then said he'd leave it but "I should be more careful about keeping aggressive animals". He is a twat, I will ignore him- it's the general lack of care this summer that has got to me.

Ugh, I'm not a country child but have manners and common sense enough to close gates I've opened, take my litter home and not disturb animals especially with their Young.

Can't believe he actually asked you to pay! I feel sorry the dog, it's his owners fault he got kicked. Even the best behaved dogs can be unpredictable so I wouldn't take the risk myself, but especially not around an animal with a baby it would be defensive of

"As with all things, though, with rights come responsibilities"

Completely agree. I'm rather in favour of scrapping 'rights' generally, in fact, in favour of responsibilities (e.g. 'every child has a right to be safe, warm and fed' becomes 'everyone has the responsibility to do what he or she can to ensure no child is unsafe, cold or hungry'). That's another thread, though.

Again, I think a lot of it comes down to education. People need reminding how to move through the countryside - and urban streets, for that matter - with respect.

Is it the same in Scotland as in England re shooting dogs that worry livestock? If so he is lucky you are so understanding that it was his fault not the dogs! Here you would have every right to shoot his dog if it was worrying your mare.

Agree about the fence. Get one up op, keep them way from your poor livestock! Bloody idiots.

He's an idiot. And a chancer. He doesn't fancy paying his vets bill himself.

jacks Well done. Where are you Scotland? I've just started farming up here and had no idea about right to roam. AFAIK people don't wander across my fields but have I really no right to tell them to bugger off? My animals are sheep and I don't have a gun. Surely I am allowed to say get orf my land. I'm outraged.

Where are you in* Scotland

I have a friend in Scotland who has had similar problems, he solved this by driving barbed wire fences to the inside of his stone dyke walls, attaching padlocks to gates and strategically enlarging some of his drainage ditches to make them difficult to cross. It is now easier to stick to the marked path than short cut across his fields (only saved less than 1 minute off the maintained route), and he not longer gets damage to gates and stone dyke walls.

The other solution i have seen done is people put an internal fence to their main walls and allow this area to overgrow. It doesn't stop people walking through, but makes it less desirable to do so.

www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/

Have a read, derxa. :)

I really think you should have to have a licence to keep an animal, one that you have to pass a test for. so many people are woefully stupid.

some people just do not get it... grass is grass, not a hay crop to feed animals and something you are reliant on to break even..etc.

aggghhh some people spoil it for everyone else.

Hmmn. I have let my dog off the lead in a field through which a public footpath passes. The mares were very agitated and kept charging at us and kicking as we walked along the footpath, with the dog on a lead. My reasoning was the the dog (who was being very well behaved) would run through the hedge and avoid the hooves. I was worried about being kicked in the head, a mile from the nearest road, and perhaps being left unconscious in a field for a long time. When the dog ran off into the hedge the mares left us alone and both we and the dog were fine.

BUT, if these walkers were ignoring a perfectly accessible right of way, with no mares and foals, they were foolish.

Thanks hirples I am actually hirpling quite a lot these days
if you go into a field of farm animals, keep your dog(s) on a short lead
or under close control and keep as far as possible from the animals;
A direct quote from Outdoor Access doc.

It's all very lovely but if a family wandered into my fields for a picnic accompanied by dogs, I might be wandering over for a little 'chat'. don't let the shepherdess see them- she's a crack shot with her rifle and goes to Shooting Club every week

I would never ever let my dog off lead if I knew there was any form of large nursing mother around - cows, horses, sheep, etc! Any mare worth her salt would kick out at an intruder getting near her baby.

If my dog did get kicked I'd out it down to experience and pay the vet, not expect someone else to pick up the tab for my stupidity.

derxa

Yes, under the right to roam legislation the public have right of access to fields with farm animals and open pasture (see www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/Practical-guide/public/Fields-with-farm-animals). They don't have right of access to houses /gardens/ airfields/ structures such as bridges or weirs/ land for a particular sporting/recreational purpose or land which previously required payment for entry. The legislation does not allow the public to remove things from the land for profit either.

A brief summary of the act is here: www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/sites/default/filesdocs/information_sheet_-summary_of_the_land_reform_scotland_act_2005-_part_1_4pp.pdf

The local authority can, technically speaking, exempt land from the right of access- e.g. for preservation of natural or cultural heritage.

In short, no you can't prevent people being on your land as long as they are not being irresponsible (the act states that "a person has access rights only if they are behaving responsibly"). The problem is finding out who has been acting irresponsibly in order to deny them access!

Incidentally, many years ago now, my Aunt's two terriers escaped from their garden and went to play with the local sheep.

She heard two gunshots while she was out looking for them and that was the last she saw/heard of them. As a 'countrywoman' herself, she didn't go to tick off the farmer, just accepted that she'd not secured the garden fence properly and got on with life.

sorry- have just seen that someone else pointed you in the direction of the outdoor access website derxa.

You might go and have a chat, but from experience many walkers/ramblers know their rights and will tell you that you can't actually enforce that they leave as they have the right to access the land for purposes of recreation! Less experienced people probably would move on though.

Vets bill? are you not within your rights to shoot a dog worrying livestock?
I say this as someone who daily exercises a dog on footpaths across farm land, he never goes off his lead.

Yanbu

Yadnbu. What an entitled twat. Shame the horse didn't kick him. When the foals are weaned, I suggest you travel all the mares to his driveway and stand about for 30 minutes, before banging on the door to complain his dog is barking and he shouldn't have such an aggressive animal on his own property.

ExConstance

There is a perception that you can shoot a dog worrying livestock, but the law is a bit of a grey area on this.

If your dog is out of control and worries or attacks livestock you are committing an offence and can be prosecuted.

If the landowner, farmer, stockman/woman shoots a dog they have to prove that had a lawful excuse for doing so- i.e. they will have to show that they acted in the belief that the livestock was in immediate need of protection with no other course of action likely to prevent the animals from being endangered.

Injuring or killing a person’s dog could give rise to a possible criminal damage charge or being sued by the dog's owners (the defence being the same as above, and of course you could countersue the dog owner).

I think in most instances the farmer will shoot first, ask questions later and the police will not take too hard a line when it comes to "lawful excuse"- especially in those instances where the dogs owners were not in direct sight of the event (i.e. dog was so out of control owners could not see them or what had happened). However, the fact remains farmers could still be prosecuted for shooting a dog on their land.

All of our gates to the fields are locked as someone left a gate open last year and 4 of my horses got out onto the road. Someone also left gates open and we had to round up 200 + sheep. Some people have no respect whatsoever for the countryside or farmers. DH had a vet practice near our house and the amount of people who think it's acceptable to let their dogs off the lead in fields is shocking. The field may look empty from the top of the hill but there's livestock in all of our fields. People have taken to climbing the locked gates which is fine by me, the bull is in there so it's not our fault they're stupid enough to climb a gate. We also have signs everywhere however people ignore them. We have a huge pond that has a stream running into it and out of it. It used to feed a water wheel many years ago and we have massive signs warning "No swimming dangerous water". People STILL go up there with their kids and let them into the pond. We have signs up for a reason..... The undercurrent caused by the stream that runs from the hill makes the 6 metre deep (in places) pond dangerous to swim in. I've lived here all my life and generations have never let their children swim in that pond. However, people who fancy a day out in the country choose to ignore the signs and let their kids into what appears to be a shallow pond. until they wade 4 feet out and it drops dramatically into 6 meter deep water On 5 occasions this year we've had people get into trouble up there. The gates are locked, the signs are up, but they choose to climb barbed wire fences with their picnics .

If your mare has kicked a dog the dog shouldn't have been near her in the first place, especially with a foal at foot.

If people want to walk on the pathways that run along most of our fields that's fine, but we now refuse to take the risk of them not closing gates. As for picnicking in our fields, all I will say is I'm glad I was married to a vet. When some idiot left their rubbish lying with sandwiches in it 2 years ago I nearly lost a young horse. People are stupid beyond words sometimes.p

YADNBU. DH was kicked by cows a few years ago. (Ddog was on a lead). He didn't realise there was a calf in the field otherwise he would have gone a different route, public footpath or not. You don't have to be a country person to know that dogs and young animals with mums is a bad mix!