To think being Far left wing (communist) and praising the ussr is as bad as being far right and supporting the Bnp

[Dadistired1]

This is a question I asked myself, I have a colleague who is very far left in her political views and has the USSR flag as her iphone and laptop screen saver.

Aibu to think that it is just as bad as having a confederate flag or nazi flag as a screensaver. Aibu to think its shocking no one at work has said anything.

Im left wing, but praising a regime that killed millions and oppressed many is way pass the line.

(ps this colleague is not from any former soviet country)

Math Go and read a little of Irish and Scottish history, particularly as it relates to language, social structure and culture, before you start bleating about destruction of ethnicity and culture

Yellow Well quite math - there are so many examples even on these shores of how political systems commonly operate I didn't wish to confuse Elk with them all.

Quite how you expect to persuade people like me, who are reasonably high and reliable taxpayers, to give you more tax to pay for the communism you espouse, is beyond me. I guess you could control access to the media and build a fence around my country and prevent me from leaving? And then tell me I'm stupid a few more times, and if that doesn't work, ship me off to a corrective prison if I continue to bleat or "be confused"? From someone who probably doesn't know the difference between a unicameral or a bicameral chamber too, never mind pluralism and post-nationalism in a constitutional sense.

I also find this tendency to "big up" incidents from history as being bigger and badder and worse than mass killings really distasteful. Replace rational discussion with ever more graphic description of individual examples. As bad as the selective amnesia/denial of the atrocities under communism (you see a similar tendency in those who seek to deny the holocaust). Almost as if you want to be able to prove that you were even more hard done by in the past than another country, so that you can use it as an excuse for your current failings and your own personal failure to prosper.

I really don't think math is espousing communism, simply pointing out that it is not the sole source of brutality and oppression in the modern world.

But don't let that stop you...

I admit it is difficult to work out what she is trying to argue for, other than the fact that she is much more intelligent and better read than any other poster.

In terms of who killed the most don't forget Mao - 40 - 70m deaths by starvation for a start.

BitOfFun yes to being civil but I have to admit it is really hard to take sentences like

Try telling the poor of the Dublin flats that yes they were living in hopeless poverty with no chance of ever doing better, but whoopee -- their post boxes were finally painted green instead of red, so they should cheer up.

lightly when they are so dismissive of the point I was trying to make.

I mentioned constitutional pluralism because there is a very good answer to what the anti-Westerners claim. Supranational organisations operate so as to provide an additional layer of constitutional protection for a country's citizens over and above that provided (bearing in mind most Western states do have constitutions). So for example, the ECHR. The Western world and its system of relatively caring capitalism (all those western countries have redistributive tax and welfare systems and free school age education) have developed in recent years far more advanced concepts of human rights than we have ever had recognised in human history.

It certainly seems to me to be something of a success. Even the EU was developed out of lessons learned from two world wars and a desire to work together rather than return to those days.

The point you are trying to make is that Communism was the absolute worst political system ever concocted. You are also making the point that 'freedom' is the only factor anyone should ever take into account when deciding the merits of political systems.

I am not dismissing the misery of Communism. I am asking people not to mix up poor living conditions, such as those in kommunalkas, with fundamental, philosophical issues in both communism and fascism and all other totalitarian systems. After all, poor living conditions abounded throughout the twentieth century in places that were nominally free.

I would be interested in learning how you define freedom -- is it 'freedom to' or 'freedom from' or is there more to it? Can it exist irrespective of elements of life such as access to education, or income? Are there systems besides totalitarian regimes that limit or render null and void the concept of freedom? Please tell me what rights you think people have when they live in extreme poverty, and their parents, grandparents and great grandparents did too, and their children and grandchildren will in turn.

Elke:
I am Irish. I lived there and I was educated there. I know Ireland like the back of my hand. I think I am qualified to speak about Ireland and about life there, and about Irish history. You otoh apparently lived a long way from the USSR in every sense. However, since the Netherlands was occupied by the Nazis during WW2 and suffered immensely, I would sort of expect you to understand what I am driving at here -- as IronCurtain remarks, totalitarianism of any stripe never works out well.

I referred to both Scotland and Ireland while addressing two separate matters -- population decline in a time period that saw global population explosion, and cultural destruction. You are free to ignore what I say, mix up different points I was making, misread others, and to insist on dictating your own terms of discussion, but don't pretend you are engaging with my point if you do this. You are dodging it.

Do you think there is actually any country out there whose people didn't suffer some awful periods in their history? Maybe you think the Irish, or the Scots, are in some way more important, or more favoured than any other people, and their suffering means more. ie an outside toilet is somehow worse than a grandfather shipped off to the gulags for daring to write the truth. In The Netherlands in the same period, the rural population tended to be so poor that they would make soil soup, in the hope of some fibre being included, and many people had no choice but to emigrate. But if you moaned repeatedly about those periods now, people would simply think you were a whinging obsessive.

I also kind of love the way you think no Russians under communism had outside toilets, only the Irish had those.

You seem to have missed my point completely, I mean 100% missed it, as well as misunderstanding most of the actual words I have posted. However, in a very un-selfconscious way you have posted a good illustration of one of my general points here, so thank you for that.

How free were the poor of the Netherlands who made soil soup and had no choice but to emigrate?

to be honest, the thought of listening to more than one whinging person like you fixated on one period on history and never able to get over it but using it as a political tool for ever...
Yes indeed -- like so many who are fixated on the wicked commies, the fount of all evil. 'Whinging obsessives' is a good phrase. I often think it would be an interesting exercise to google 'former KGB officer' and see how many times the name of Vladimir Putin comes up. Many here would apparently fail to recognise a media agenda even if it jumped up and bit them on the bum. Do people really think what they like, or do they think what the press wants them to think?

I think a lot of people have embarrassed themselves on this thread getting all steamed up about something they themselves have no personal experience of and little knowledge of, posting comments that come straight from Cold War era history textbooks or propaganda posters. There are some exceptions but many people seem to be frothing at the mouth over a system that did not touch their lives at all and revealing a troubling lack of appreciation of social history in the west while they are at it, and also a troubling sheep-like tendency to swallow hook, line and sinker the myth that the west is wonderful and a beacon for all mankind when it comes to freedom and prosperity.

(As for allegedly not being able to work out that you are not British -- some people get all huffy if you ask them if English is their first language/ if they are perhaps not British. You mentioned way upthread that you grew up in the Netherlands. That is why my words in that post of mine that you misquoted were 'you live in Britain'. Not 'you are from Britain'.

Maybe you can look back and ask yourself what indication I gave that I was Scottish and what indication I may have given that I am suffering from a 'personal failure to prosper'? Maybe you can answer me too why you hate Scotland and deride it on this thread every time you mention it? What have the Scots ever done to you to cause such contempt on your part? I understand that you don't like paying taxes and think the SNP are a pack of thieves and utter bastards, but the vitriol wrt Scotland is taking me aback.)