AIBU to think the English school system is bonkers and needs a complete overhaul?

[coffeeisnectar]

Just that really.

I used to live in Scotland which has a fabulous system where every child is offered a place in the closest school. You can apply to a different school but you will only be offered a place if you have a valid reason and they have places after all catchment children have been admitted.

You don't need to apply for a school, you just get a letter saying your child has a place and that's it. As a consequence 90% of kids can walk to school, the kids walk with local kids and there are no parents stressing because they have to ferry their kids 6 miles each day.

Surely this would be a much better system! What am I missing? Why isn't this in place?

Actually, thinking about it - there's nothing wrong at all with the way school places are allocated in England, what's wrong is that there's not enough school places in the right areas. If, in an area of less than 0.5 of a mile from a school there is enough children to fill 4 classes of 30 (as is our area right now), there should be 120 places available. Some people within the area might want to send their DCs to different schools, some from outside the area might want to send to that school, but the system of letting people apply to the school of their choice, really does depend on there being enough places.

In many towns and cities, there's not enough places close to where people live. It's not the way they are allocated that's the problem, it's that building has been allowed to happen without increasing school capacities. It's that what wasn't an issue when schools just could have 38/40 children in a class, becomes a huge issue when there's a set limit of 30 per class.

I assume there's extra capacity in most schools in scotland, that there's not a shortage of places. Just going to your local school only works if your local school has enough places for the catchment it serves.

The difference, here in France at least, is that local authorities have a statutory duty to provide a school place, and not just any one (you couldn't palm off your surplus students on a neighbouring municipality for example). Classes are opened (or closed) if necessary.

It means that parents know that their children will have a place in their local school and hugely reduces the stress of school applications, which are usually done in May or June for September entry.

Yabu. I don't live in an area where there is a lack of local school places. But I do live in one where there is a catchment by income/ religion criteria for good schools.
Personally if I was reforming education, I'd start with one super selective in each lea, and enough none mainstream schools for all those in need who want them. And then introduce some form of pupil basic ability test to judge performance of both school and pupil on, instead of league tables and tonnes of silly reports and box ticking exercises. And get rid of religious criteria for a place at religious schools. More accountability for badly run schools/ teachers, less pressure to meet impossible targets for the good ones.

We moved countries to improve dc educational opportunities. We live in an area where there were still grammar schools and the non-selective schools bar 2 very over subscribed were really poor in terms of GCSEs and A levels. We were told that even though ds would be able to pass the 11+ that his sld would make grammar school very difficult for him as he would not get much help.
The school he was eventually offered was an appalling school, with poor reputation.

I think our situation that we faced back them was pretty common and it sounds like it still is, so in 5yrs nothing has changed.

We were v lucky that we were able through dh job to move abroad and access what is effectively non-selective private education, dc have flourished.

I do really believe that something needs to change with the current system, that seems to leave people with effectively no choices.

It would be a cold day in hell before I would send my children to the local school. I love that we get a choice. In my city something like 93% got their first choice of school.

lurked the system you describe does exist. What happens currently in these areas is that those to pass the test end up in schools where by GCSEs 70% achieve 5 GCSEs a-c (including maths and english) and those who don't who end up in schools where for the same GCSEs there is 40% pass rate.

What also happens it there is often a social economic divide between the pupils who attend these two different schools.

Competition for the selective school is very high and from what I saw when I lived in the UK most children were having private tutors to ensure a pass at 11+. Clearly not everyone can afford that and the divide starts to widen.

I would get rid of selective schools and focus as you say on poor teaching etc

It's incredibly simplistic to say that so yabu.
Of course, if there is a village with conveniently has 30 5 year olds in, then yes they could all go to their local school.
But say, for arguments sake, you have a town on one long road with one school in the middle, and one at one end. Then all the kids at the other end need to go to the school on the middle, whilst the house next door to the school in the middle would have to go to the school at the end of town.
Iyswim. My point is, in a densely populated town it is likely to be a statistical impossibility that everyone should get to go their closest school. I don't think you've put much thought into this.

I doubt a Catholic would want their child to attend an inadequate Catholic school if a non-faith outstanding school was an option.

I admit I do find the English system confounding. I'm in the US where in every state, the system is similar to the Scottish one: you go to your catchment school. In my state some districts have some "magnet" schools (performing arts, gifted, etc.) that have entrance requirements and pull from the entire district, but otherwise, you go to the school nearest where you live. Of course, schools vary in quality and the areas with better schools will have higher house prices as a result. But there are many programs, depending on the state, to shore up the poorer performing schools.

Of course, all faith schools are private, and state schools are not allowed to conduct religious observances.

In Scotland you are not forced to attend a catchment area school. If you want, you can make an out of catchment application to attend another school. This is very popular in some areas.

In general, I am very glad that we do not have the English system. Every year I read the threads about the children who have not been allocated a place in England and am glad that with a few exceptions your children will almost always be offered a place in Scotland in their catchment area school. Even if your child doesn't get a place in their local school they will be offered a place in another school that is close by and I have heard our local LA arranges free transport.

I have thought about it. A lot.

When we moved here I moved into my dps house which is a 60 second walk from one of the three primaries in the catchment. I duly made an application with this as first choice with the other two as 2nd and 3rd. What I was not expecting was to be knocked back for all three and offered a school 3 miles away that operates on a totally different system to my area.

Consequently dd started year 2 in the school 3 miles away and now, going into year 5 is moving back to this area to start middle school so that in year 9 she can attend the local high school.

My teen was refused a place at the high school when we moved here, the only one in catchment. She now goes to a school 5 miles away that is costing us £600 a year in transport costs and its in a different LEA from the local one.

It took months of forms, phone calls and stress to sort out both kids and dd 2 finished school in the June that year and didn't go back until the October because the LEA dragged their heels for so long.

I see on here threads about parking at schools, parents in tears because their child has no place or has been offered one miles away and family has no car. Something has to change!

Dd is now able to walk the 15 mins to school and its so much better for both of us. I walk part of the way with her and meet her on the way back.

But coffee, the problem isn't that people can apply for schools that aren't their nearest, it's that there's not enough places at the nearest schools! Scrap the class size limits and the angst about not being allocated places or only at ones miles away will stop, new angst about 40 in a class will start (there were 38 in my primary school class, and no TA back then).

State schools have often sold playing fields in previous years, so there's no space to just put on more classes. There has been a baby boom, but there's not been a new primary school building programme, instead exisiting schools have been encouraged to increase their capacity, and in our town, 2 schools have put on additional classes in the last 2 years, but they can't increase anymore and the others don't have the space - the idea seems to be that 'free schools' will fill the gaps, but that doesn't seem to be happening at primary level anywhere near enough to fill the gap.

For the year after next (when DC2 goes to school), our council apparently has a shortfall of 60 places. They need 60 families to go private, and then will just have to juggle everyone else into the spaces they have, which might well be nowhere near where they live. So glad we'll get DC2 in to our closest school on sibling criteria as at 0.5miles, it's unlikely we'd get in if she was the eldest. But there's no plans to build another primary school in our town.

Well it wouldn't work in northern ireland due to religious differences and types of primary education. It's not unusal for children here to travel large distances for secondary education as we have grammer system still in place and children can choose where they go.

So, if I've understood correctly, you moved for y2 and couldn't get a local place. Do you think a child who was in the school for y1 should have been kicked out to accommodate you, as you are now closer?

oh reading your last post - it's not the allocation issue, it's space and class size limits - if you'd applied from that house at reception, you'd have got in, but as someone further away has the place, they can't give your DD a place at that school to start Year2 as the class is already full. Popular, successful schools usually are as parents don't turn down the places.

In Scotland, are they more flexible on the 30 DC a class thing? So if you turned up in year 2 to a school that was full but your catchment, would you still get a place taking it to 31, or would they put on a whole extra class for a 31st child, or would you be offered at a different school in the area if that had a place, even if it was not your closest?

What i would love to know is how other countries can organise their school systems so that all chidren are offered local school places, yet the UK can't. It's all very well saying that it's impossible for x and y and z reasons - but pretty much all other developed countries manage to do it, so it's not that it's impossible - it's that vested interests and sharp-elbowed parents don't want it to be possible.

Sorry, I meant that England can't.

No obviously I don't think a child should have been kicked out. But I know (saw) kids down next to her school 3 miles away were attending our local school as they were in that uniform. Instead of those kids crossing a road to go to a school they were being driven to my street to attend this one while I drove in the other direction. It's insane. The sibling criteria means that in the future other local kids will be doing the same thing.

Mistigri - other countries build more schools per capita. Other countries don't have limits on numbers of children in a class /have higher limits so it's not an issue of more children than spaces in a mile radius of the school. Other countries map where children are born and make sure they have built enough places for 5 years later... Other countries have a higher percentage of parents paying for private education so there's less demand for state places.

Are you sure mistrigirl? Which countries as densely populated can do it?
I just think it must be an absolute logistical nightmare, catchment, siblings, people moving in and out etc etc

The problem is this area, especially for the secondary, is that there have been about 6 new housing estates being built. 3 more have just started plus about 6 developments of 3 or 4 houses. The school already has over 1400 pupils and can't take anymore.

Lots more houses mean lots more people and therefore children. But no schools are getting bigger (some through choice and some just can't) and no new schools.

This issue was discussed at the group part of the appeals process. That planning permission for literally a few thousand schools has been approved, with no thought to the schools.

The nearest academy has 18 million pound in the bank and refuses to make their school bigger. Other schools don't have the room. The LA is uninterested in building anymore. The next cpuncil area along is just in the early stage of approving 2 new ones. Again, lots more houses being built, the schools can't accomdate.

It's really putting the cart before the horse though

idefix I don't want the 11+ System expanding. I meant as in one super selective per area, no entering for several or out of catchment places. It wouldn't cream off the entire top sets from all the surrounding comprehensives. But it would mean there was adequate provision in the system itself for the most able, which at the moment is lacking. I don't dispute many schools do provide, but there's nothing in the system to make those that don't and won't. And even those that do are restricted by practicalities. Putting the top 2 or 3% altogether would make it practical. And actually allow them to compete on even footing academically with the independent sectors most able.

These housing developments are just in the catchment area we are in as well.

It does seem silly op, but you don't know where it started....eg maybe they lived closer to your school when they first applied for reception, then moved. I don't think it's unreasonable to not want to change your child's school if they're settled and happy there, just because you move a few miles away.