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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

(part 2) to think that Camila Batmanghelidgh must be lying when she says she has done nothing wrong in her spending of Kids' Company Funding?

635 replies

LuluJakey1 · 01/09/2015 17:34

She is like Jimmy Saville in that what she has been doing has been under all of all our noses and we have refused to speak up about it or believe it.

It is not just the luvvies who have been up close and personal with her- involved with the charity and CB at a very close level, some even Trustees. It is also the employees and the parents of children, the children themselves, the volunteers. We are not talking about a hidden mis-use of funding. We are talking aout a whole culture of open waste and self-indulgence.

I know it is from The Daily Mail but it is actually an interview with het.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3199527/My-heart-clear-says-Kids-Company-boss-Batmanghelidjh-admits-charity-paid-school-fees-employees-children-denies-wrongdoing.html

£5000 a month rent on an Art Deco House with private swimming pool - which houses a member of staff, and the swimming pool is used by CB but hot by any children- they are 'not allowed' (her words)

£40,000 chauffeur- now a specialist worker (according to CB). also has private school and therapist funding for his 2 children.

Staff( how many?) have their children sent to private schools because the job is stressful and it is part of a 'staff well-being package'

The Chauffeur's sister is also employed - now as a 'brilliant accountant', last summer as 'the woman who does my sewing' (mind you that would be a full-time job in itself, but it does imply the charity pays for those vile outfits much as I suspected)

25 young people given £769,000 a year funding - £31,000 a year each, to do nothing. They are CB's specially selected young people- many of whom have received funding for many years. She describes them as 'like a family, hanging round the house'. She deals with their funding herself.

Yet STILL CB complains staff should not have spoken up about any of this and implies those who have will suffer for it.

In my view this woman and her behaviours are corrupt, dishonest and immoral.

Are my views unreasonable? I feel this could be jus the tip of the iceberg in terms of what is yet to emerge and prosecutions will be very likely.

I think there should be a down- to the -bone, in-depth investigation of every aspect of the work of this charity and of CB. Not simply any concerns that have now been raised but a complete trawl of the spending, the practices and the behaviours of CB herself.

OP posts:
KanyeWestPresidentForLife · 02/09/2015 10:43

Just think. 2,000 years ago Christmas was about wise men on camels with Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh.

Now it's 500 hundred Muslim taxi drivers ferrying around 437 turkeys. I guess the other 63 bought the spuds!

BoffinMum · 02/09/2015 10:48

And CB was the sole Persian Magi representative proffering the gold, frankincense and myrrh presumably?

LadyBlaBlah · 02/09/2015 11:05

I admit I haven't read the whole thread but I do find MissHoolie's post interesting.

I have worked for an organisation which I suppose is similar to KC but dealing with the adults / young people who were still in vulnerable positions. We were not a charity but we certainly did not have the restrictions that the NHS have.

I also think it is key to remember that many NHS services ALSO don't help people. Everyone I worked with had been through CAHMS, counselling, AD and anxiety treatments and were still no better in terms of behaviour and mental health.

I do think CB and KC were trying to fill that gap, as was the organisation I worked for. We did have specific outcomes and measures, unlike KC, but I think it is clear on this thread that it is HARD to help these vulnerable people and actually many of these services don't work and no service can claim 100% success. None of them!

BoiteDeStinkyweed · 02/09/2015 11:22

Werksallhourz she mentions the underpants claim in her book Mind the Child as well, it comes in the middle of a raft of statistics about the state children are in when they arrive at KC:
90 per cent of over-sixteens were not in employment or education at the time of the initial assessment
51 per cent had housing problems
33 per cent didn’t have a bed
18 per cent did not own a single pair of
underpants
55 per cent reported being constantly angry and
capable of exploding
84 per cent of children and young people arriving
at one of our street-level centres are homeless
87 per cent suffer from significant emotional
difficulties as a result of challenges they face in life

I saw it was footnoted, so I checked the source - 'Data gathered in external and internal evaluations, Kids Company, 2008–2012'.

witoldkula · 02/09/2015 12:29

Thank you! This is Gen, I wrote the Osca blog.

CarriesBucketOfBlood · 02/09/2015 12:35

Boite with such a weak citation, I think it's appropriate to wonder about the collection technique.

I think that it is very possible children were counted as multiple individuals, especially if they self referred multiple times. I also wonder whether every child was evaluated with the same evaluation form/ scheme/ standard. Perhaps not all children were asked every question and that is why some percentages are unbelievably high.

witoldkula · 02/09/2015 12:35

Ahem, that was meant to be a thank you to highonhope and lulu for the mentions. :-)

Werksallhourz · 02/09/2015 12:46

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge

You mistake me -- or, rather, I most likely didn't make my thoughts very clear. My post from last night is rather unwieldly.

I was thinking about "tribal children" in that last paragraph within the context of children not wearing pants, rather than neglect. While I writing about her comment, I was trying to figure out a) what kind of headspace CB inhabits and b) whether there would be any reason why a child in Britain would not own pants other than neglect.

I was playing through scenarios in my mind. Is it possible that there are some situations where some parents in London misunderstand Western dress codes? So I started considering all the instances in the world where children do not tend to wear pants, so we are looking at traditional cultures such as African tribal children, South American tribal children, South East Asian village children, and instances were children don't wear underwear under their clothes, so Chinese village children, Mongolian tribal children etc.

So then I thought, okay, say, a family from this cultural background comes to London and their child goes to school, is it likely they would make the mistake of dressing the child in western clothes without purchasing underwear? It is possible but, to be honest, I just cannot see that such a thing occurs regularly to the point of being "18 percent" of a deprived group. And, again, Britain doesn't really have a lot of migrant families from this type of background. As a rule, traditional Mongolian tribal families do not migrate to Britain.

Again, such families would not necessarily fall into a "deprived group" as commonly defined by CB, which also seems to focus heavily on neglect and mental health, and further more, the instances of non-pants wearing tends to be confined to rather young children in these cultures. Once a girl hits puberty, by default, in some of these cultures, she requires some sort of undergarment.

So I came to the conclusion that if CB were channeling this type of image, it would be have to be site specific, so it would be an African tribal pantless child in Africa, iyswim ...

... because this is how I suspect she works. As a pp said, she manipulates "semiotic markers" or, as I would adapt, she uses images of arresting and potent, almost cinematic, narratives to her own ends.

So for her own life story, we get "Escape from the Shah", "A Beautiful (Camila) Mind", "Mother Teresa Camila of Calcutta Southwark", there's also a bit of "(Camila's) House of Sand and Fog" in there too in terms of nearly losing her flat, and when she is using this type of imagery to describe her clients, we get "The Feral Apocalypse", "London's Ragged Children", "Shame of Romania London" (a transposing of the developmental problems of Romanian orphans onto Southwark children).

All these are borrowed narratives with a lot of cultural resonance. So if she was looking to reflect a resonant image of a pantless child, there are only a small number of options: the historically potent image of the deprived Victorian child, or an indigenous image that implied a climate of economic underdevelopment, so the indigenous child.

This probably makes no sense whatsoever. Grin I should have just said that I didn't mean to imply the African tribal child was deprived.

ChristineDePisan · 02/09/2015 13:00

Werks - I wonder if it's more straightforward: "in 18 cases we discovered that the child didn't even own any pants" became "18% of children didn't own pants"...

witold - good to have you on the thread, and thanks for your post. I hadn't come across the label "Bonoism" before, but I love it.

lulu - I think one of the media reports of the Xmas parties described CB sitting in a sort of Santa's Grotto. Which in most circumstances would have been lovely...

LineyReborn · 02/09/2015 13:03

Gen / witold, I thought your piece was great. Also hadn't heard of 'Bonoism' before!

BoreOfWhabylon · 02/09/2015 13:08

witoldkula thank you so much for writing your excellent blogpost. It was fascinating to read.

Can you shed any light on the number of pantless clients?

something2say · 02/09/2015 13:19

It is interesting to read how people interpret things like this.

For example, in our abusive childhood home, we had a lot of money but there were a great many things wrong. The females shared pants. Shared. You could not say we did not wear pants, but you could say that we did not own pants, and as a charity worker, I would veer towards saying children like us did not own pants because we had to share them - and sharing is wrong, not owning ones own underpants in inappropriate - yet other people might day it is untrue, or twisting of the truth.

This charity does need to be scrutinised, but some of the lack of front line, high risk, true to life experience is showing up in my view in some of these postings.

GriefLeavesItsMark · 02/09/2015 13:20

And a bit of digging shows that Camila accepted funding for her hunch-led research from tax-dodging purveyor s of ADHD drugs, Shire.

something2say · 02/09/2015 13:22

Forgot to clarify - I would have said that we did not own pants - purely so that people would get that something was wrong about our underpant scenario, and if they dug deeper they would find out that something was indeed wrong with it, and a great deal more besides that. We front line workers do say things in certain ways - there are degrees, thin lines of wedges, knife edges that we are differentiating between - and we do want to make them clear to people - who don't understand and need it explaining.

jeronimoh · 02/09/2015 13:25

witoldkula - have you posted a link to your blog? I haven't seen it.

witoldkula · 02/09/2015 13:41

jeronimoh - I hadn't posted but two others have. Here it is again though: osca.co/2015/02/need-talk-kids-company/

No views on pants specifically. Strong views on KC's use of evidence and figures however. I am readily sceptical of any % figure they published for the good reason that I have yet to see one substantiated with rigorous evidence.

BoreOfWhabylon · 02/09/2015 13:41

Lulu posted it earlier, Jeronimoh

osca.co/2015/02/need-talk-kids-company/

ChristineDePisan · 02/09/2015 13:52

something2say - I understand what you are saying (and I think CB has been very clever at picking vignettes which are easy for non-child protection experts to understand: "no pants" is much more effective at conveying the problem than "lacking in personal garments and neglectful hygiene practices", for example). I think my problem with it is the relatively high %age - I struggle to believe that nearly 1 in 5 clients is in this position. It seems an example of hyperbole - if CB had said that 8% didn't have their own pants, I would think a) that is shockingly high (nearly 1 in 10!); but b) not so high that I am dubious about their calculations.

Werksallhourz · 02/09/2015 13:55

But Christine", in the standard article's direct quote, it's not that the child doesn't own pants, or that their pants are too small, it's that they have never had any pants ever*. Hmm

Of course, she could be misquoted in the article, but even 18 cases of not having pants upon first contact with KC seems a bit much -- unless these children are late to toilet train and are still in pull-ups ... but that is not what CB is implying, is it? And if she is talking about such children, then it is an obvious misdirection.

I know I keep going on about it, but there is something here, something to do with the way she uses statistics, the way she uses potent imagery, and the way no-one previously seems to have challenged or questioned her really quite ludicrous statements.

I guess what bothers me is that if the oddities of these very publicised and controversial statistics were not questioned by governmental overseers or media figures, then what does that say about those in oversight? What other blatantly obvious exaggerations aren't they "seeing" elsewhere?

Because if we are talking about a situation where no red flags go up when someone talks about feeding 4000 people out of a 510 capacity room in one day, or cooking over 400 turkeys in 48 hours, or reaching 36,000 people, or needing £31 million to run a fairly localised intervention service with over £3 million from government, then we are talking about people in powerful oversight positions that have no sense of reality.

And that could go very far into further confirming just why British public finances are in such a mess.

I used to work in the field of fiscal spending in the early to late 00s (I could see the deficit potential coming a mile off, but that's a story for another time), and I got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the end of lend lease in 2006 because we were going to make the last payment in December of that year. So I contacted my MP to ask where the money was going to be reallocated in future years because it struck me that we had had to pay a certain amount of money every year to the US and Canada, and now we would no longer have to pay it, so there was more capacity in the system: where would that capacity go?

The response was that the lend lease payments were "a drop in the ocean" and irrelevant. Well, no, it wasn't "a drop in the ocean", it was 55 million quid a year. It was the equivalent NHS cost of 61,000 uncomplicated vaginal births (so 12 percent of all births in a year), or the salaries of 1570 senior nurses or teachers.

The KC and CB fiasco is a reflection of this inability to see, in political and media spheres, that the devil is in the detail.

squeaver · 02/09/2015 14:38

This is a very interesting and articulate thread. The whole saga is fascinating to me particularly as I'm a trustee of a much, much (MUCH) smaller charity in London which also supports children (albeit specifically those with special needs and specifically through sport).

David Allen Green wrote a very interesting article on the FT blog, where he references Gen's blog. You can read it here but if you don't want to log in to the FT site, this paragraph is very interesting:


You cannot get away with saying the problems with Kids Company can only be seen with “hindsight”. The charity’s own Annual Report for 2013 is alarming reading, if you look at the detail rather than the glossy distractions and expensive photography. For example, the charity states that it spent £15m on salary costs in 2013 (p 55); but it can only document 750 children who it helped (p13). Of course, the organisation claims to have helped many more than that, and there is no doubt that it did; but when it comes to hard verifiable data, the ratio of cash to beneficiaries is worrying. And this was in 2013; one can only wonder what the state of its finances were by 2015.


You can only conclude that the charity's own Trustees - inlcuding all those household names - didn't bother to read their own Annual Report. Otherwise, how could they NOT have questioned what was going on??

squeaver · 02/09/2015 14:39

And Gen/witold - I am shamelessly stealing 'Bonoism'!

witoldkula · 02/09/2015 15:15

squeaver - wish could say was mine but Alan Finlayson deserves the credit!

Wolpertinger · 02/09/2015 16:33

witold thank-you for coming on the thread, it is great to hear your insights.

The Bonoism article sums up a lot of what many of us on this thread see day to day in our working lives - link below if anyone hasn't read it already:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-923X.2011.02325.x/abstract

I know this thread is about Kids Company but it's shocking to see how many other charities are run on the same lines. Daily Mail has yet another article about the Halo Trust today which seems to have had exactly the same problems but with less publicity:
Charismatic leader
Charismatic celebrity support - Princess Diana and then Angelina Jolie
Largely unqualified trustees - wife of politician, TV presenter, friend of the royals - presumably all there for PR and social networking not serious number crunching

And so they let their eye of the ball and are convinced paying the CEO's kids' school fees is a good idea, and then when he has to go, they pay themselves to sort it out. Despite one of them being a hedge fund manager and presumably not short of a bob or two.

Good on Angelina Jolie for having nothing more to do with them. She seems to be a rare celeb who actually does some proper research and puts her money where her mouth is although still a bit too keen of being given awards herself

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219384/Angelina-Jolie-quit-Princess-Diana-clearing-charity-row-trustees-paying-500-day.html

SonicStamp · 02/09/2015 16:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AlfAlf · 02/09/2015 16:45

In Big Society, Not Big Government, David Cameron asserts that we need a different kind of society “where the leading force of progress is social responsibility, not state control” and this is to be achieved by “breaking state monopolies, allowing charities, social enterprises and companies to provide public services ”

I think a big part of why the problems with KC have been ignored and swept under the carpet for so long is that it leaves Cameron with a lot of egg on his face. The first I ever heard of CB was when he was championing her as a poster girl for his Big Society (presumably that's when the money got into the tens of millions?). He gave her special treatment and created a monster.