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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be in tears over the news today?

190 replies

KnockMeDown · 28/08/2015 18:16

71 migrants suffocated in a truck. Countless scores drowning in the Med. There doesn't seem to be an answer - they will keep coming, searching for a better life, wanting just the basics for their families.

I've kept it at bay up to now, but that truck... What were they thinking at the end Sad

I don't know what to say, or think, or do, but I am incredibly upset over it.

OP posts:
wafflyversatile · 29/08/2015 00:28

Although (((Syria)))

rollercoasterchicken · 29/08/2015 02:17
Sad
Burnet · 29/08/2015 02:54

Where will the money come from to house all these refugees?

Well, yes, that would be an important job for the people in charge to work out, but I'm sure there's somewhere we could take funding from in a time of great humanitarian disaster, so we could do the right thing, and not turn our backs. They are people like us.

Assad is evil. If we do nothing to help those fleeing, how can we see ourselves as any better?

IPityThePontipines · 29/08/2015 03:36

UN declared quite a while ago that the situation in Syria was the worst refugee crisis of recent times.

Over 4 million people have fled the country. Many have gone to Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey (4th Largest "city" in Jordan is a refugee camp), but due to the massive influx of people, many are now fleeing further afield for a better chance of work.

It's not just ISIS they are fleeing, Assad is raining down barrel bombs, placing areas under siege and other things too unpleasant to write here.

The Syrians are very proud people and it is an extra torture for them to be on display to the world like this. Everyone you see trying to flee would have previously had jobs and homes, but they've lost everything.

If we allow boatloads and lorryloads of people to die, because we won't help them...I don't think Holocaust comparisons are inaccurate.

DadWasHere · 29/08/2015 04:13

Russia now fields its state of the art weaponry into Syria but its too late to make a difference for Assad, it can only shape the battlefield, not win it. Buildings reduced to rubble, rubble reduced to stones and stones reduced to sand. Its as the level of diaspora now. At least a decade more factional fighting, partitioning of the country on the ground if not on a map, followed by ten or more years of chronic instability, clawing back a semblance of nationhood ten years after that with altered national borders governed by god only knows. Thirty years and more of strife. At the end, like the Lebanese, there will be more Syrians living outside of Syria than in it.

TheAussieProject · 29/08/2015 04:29

Have you seen this "Save the children " video on youtube, What if Surrey were Syria .
We are so lucky.

itsraininginbaltimore · 29/08/2015 07:51

Waffly I think just quoting countries who take in the most asylum seekers (or immigrants generally) by number is totally irrelevant. We need to start by look at the existing density of population per km.sq in each of those countries (and in the UK we really need to look at the breakdown of England Scotland Wales and NI and the corresponding land masses of each) then look at the number of Asylum Seekers taken represented as a percentage of the existing population. That would give a rather different slant on things I think.

I agree we have room for millions more. Providing they all go to Scotland. The trouble is, they wouldn't, would they?

GudrunBrangwen · 29/08/2015 08:04

I think in part people are afraid that they will bring their problems here.

What causes the problems - is it their way of life, their religious set up?

In that case if we allow them to settle here in great numbers will the conflict not follow?

That seems to be behind a lot of the fear of immigration.

I wonder if there is any sense in it.

itsraininginbaltimore · 29/08/2015 08:20

I think there is a good deal of truth in what you say Gudren.

TwistedReach · 29/08/2015 10:24

I agree it absolutely horrific. This thread reeky made me think about the spare room idea. A quick google found this for anyone in London

www.praxis.org.uk/preventing-destitution-page-59.html

Im really thinking about it.

TwistedReach · 29/08/2015 10:25

really- can't type today

wafflyversatile · 29/08/2015 10:49

What causes the problems - is it their way of life, their religious set up?

Having an oppressive regime they tried to rise up against.

What was it that caused those Europeans their problems? Was it their way of life, their religious set up? I mean two massive wars costing millions of lives just 20 years apart.

LuluJakey1 · 29/08/2015 13:06

The details of taking hundreds of thousands of economic migrants are why it is unworkable.

They arrive in abject poverty and become housing priorites. So of course they are housed. This causes a backlash as local people feel badly done to and resentful. Some local authorities have housing waiting lists. of 20,000+ already. Adding another few thousand who have nothing so must be housed causes huge pressure.

They have no belongings so are given benefits, bought necessities . Again, local authority budgets are finite so it means locals are less of a priority- causes resentment.

Their children have to go to school. They are priortised on school lists because of their vulnerability. Causes resentment with oarents who can't get their children in to that school. If schools have places they will find themselves with large numbers as they arrive in influxes- I have seen it happen. Schools resent it. Many of the children arrive with no English into secondary school and yet the school is judged on their GCSE results by the government against the standards of children who have been in our Education sustem for 9 years. It can prompt an OFSTED inspection and a school falling into lower categories. Primary schools can be overwhelmed and have huge classes. Parents often hate that.

They are often in ill-health and require immediate NHS care . Anyway, they become entitled to immediate NHS services free. A system aready under pressure.

They go on benefits and are criticised for that as the benefits ststem is already under the cosh.

They want to work but unemployment is high and they are criticised for 'taking our jobs'.

Their culture is very different to the English culture and many people are intimidated by that and don't like the street they may have lived in for years becomng very different because houses are rented out to people from a different culture who seek easch other out and live close to each othet and share something of their home dulture. It causes resentment.

There is the feeling pedalled by the government every day that this country is struggling, in huge debt, we have to cut back, we hear about austerity measures, people suffer from them. Housing is in crisis and many people struggle to buy property. A large intake of migrants putting pressure on public services and and systems frightens people and causes resentment.

Think how you would feel really if you live in public housing and were suddenly told that on Monday you have to give your apare bedroom to two young women from Syria in hijabs who do not speak English at all, or two men who were in tradiotional moslem dress and you could not communicate with them. People would be terrified, angry and there would be civil unrest.

I have no idea what the solution is but unless we accept tha we are all going to have to pay more taxes to fund whatever is needed in this country lng-term I dread to think what might happen. This bastard government already hammer the poor and fund the rich. If there are half a million more poor to fund, the mega rich should pay.

wafflyversatile · 29/08/2015 13:44

And we are encouraged to resent them and be afraid of them by the media.

I think you and I and most people in the UK have a lot more in common with Syrian refugees than we do with the people with money and power in this country and they have more in common with the rich and and powerful in war torn countries they do with us.

LuluJakey1 · 29/08/2015 15:00

....and yet how many of us voted Tory or UKIP?

Not me but a significant majority and that is just the ones who bothered to vote.

In play here are Political, Economic and Social factors and fears.

Hansolosyoyo · 29/08/2015 15:15

The deaths of refugees be it in a lorry or at sea breaks my heart. These are people for fuck sake. It could so easily be one of us. I can't believe some people in this thread defending the daily mail position of screw them they're not one of us. Instead of blaming the rich fucking over our country's finances and resources we blame desperate people trying to flee violence and oppression and risking their lives in the process? And all some people can say yeah it's a tragedy BUT there's no room at the inn. It turns my fucking stomach that my country is so selfish and xenophobic. There are always answers to challenges. There's always money for war and weapons but not for human lives? All these people on their smart phones and pc's hammering away their outrage that they don't have enough possessions or a big enough house but people escaping war have nothing but the clothes on their back and we say they can go elsewhere because we don't have enough houses. It's not the refugees fault our governments systematically destroyed social housing in the name of private enterprise yet we use that as an excuse to exclude them. Deny them safety and an opportunity to live without fear. Brits make me sick. Yeah flame away

EngTech · 29/08/2015 18:07

Hypothetical scenario

The UK accepts all migrants, asylum seekers carte blanche

Question

Where are the houses for them to live?
Are there enough jobs for them?
Have the LC's / SS the ability / budget to cope with the additional requirements that the above bring i.e. Schools, doctors etc
How will all this be paid for?
Would the indigenous population accept tax rises to pay for the above?
What would the indigenous population say about being asked to give priority to the migrants, asylum seekers i.e. I am sorry your mum can't come into hospital this month we have other "higher" priorities

I accept it is heart breaking and emotional to see a fellow human being in trouble but this problem will not be solved with emotion but hard cold logic and available money

For those that say cancel Trident / Renationalise the railways etc, yep, go for it.

Question - Where will the money come from for the job losses, lack of investment and associated unemployment benefits plus the loss of tax revenue

Am I hard hearted / cold / unfeeling?

Nope just looking at this from a practical pragmatic and cost solution with the emotional aspect removed as that is what will happen to sort this one out

The politicians will wail and wring their hands BUT behind the scenes they are figuring out how much of this will cost and what impact it will have come the next election

I await the howls and gnashing of teeth but please bear in mind the UK is a very small island compared to France, Germany etc

BMW6 · 29/08/2015 18:40

Of course the deaths are horrific and I completely understand the urge to flee from danger.

But - who will fight to make their own countries the place that they want to live in if their own citizens won't?

Of course untold thousands will die in the struggle - as has happened in every developed country throughout history. Running away just enables the tyrant or fanatic to spread out.

Imagine if ISIS starts up here. Will we fight them here, or run away (and where the Jeff can you run away to).

Doublebubblebubble · 29/08/2015 19:00

It is so upsetting. To go from desperate situation to desperate situation and then to die so very horrifically. Just gah! I cant even imagine their last moments. its very frustrating, It makes me upset, But more than that it makes me really, really fucking angry!

We have to accept our dollop of responsibility for this massive exodus of people. HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS who are wanting (and hoping) for a better life for themselves and their children. I think if it were us we'd try to get out of the stuation as quickly as we could too through any means possible! If we hadn't of gone to war (an illegal war for which Tony Blair and George bush IMHO should be tried for war crimes) maybe all this wouldn't be happening on the level that it is. It's hard to say what to do but I think, again my opinion, we should let those , who are clearly fleeing for their lives from Syria (and Libya etc) should be granted asylum (or at least temporary asylum) until we can fix the mess that we made!!!!

LuluJakey1 · 29/08/2015 19:01

Hans Of course they are people and it is terrible. But I think some people here are trying to think through a response that is more than emotional. They are trying to think through the realities of what possible solutions would mean and how the country would react.

This is the tip of the iceberg. The people will keep coming in their millions from Eastern Europe, the Middle-East, Africa and elsewhere if our borders just open. Who is going to pay for them? Do we just keep taking as many as want to come? Who is going to pay for the infrastructure in housing, education and health needed to cope with them? Only by increased taxes- ie us paying- can that happen.I am not saying we should not take them- I have no idea what the solution is- but I am saying those are the questions posters here are rightly asking.

In addition, even if we were rolling in money, housing and jobs, let's be honest, many, many peope do not want them here and that is a big problem for the government to deal with. UKIP and the Tories won so many votes partly because of their immigration promises. Many people feel strongly about it and are scared by it. They are scared of what being mosem means, of extremism, of cultures and lifestyles different to their own.

The government don't want them here. They treat our own poor like lepers. They don't want our own poor, struggling people living near them or have to take responsibility for them. Dramatically reducing immigration is one of their key promises. They don't want migrants here. The only foreigners they like are billionaires- they will do what they can to make it easy for them.

It is not as simple as saying open the borders and welcome them in. It is hugely complex.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 29/08/2015 19:08

Ideally the western world would somehow sort out the problems in their own countries so they don't feel they want to leave.

But then Tony Blair meddling in the Middle East is one of the main reasons we're where we are with ISIS, etc. killing Gadaffi didn't really help,did it?

And while knocking
ISIS on the head may help in Syria I have no idea about what to do to help in other countries such as North africa.

BMW6 · 29/08/2015 19:50

Exactly. We (the West) CANNOT sort out the problems of developing countries - when we try, we only make it worse.

Every country has to develop of itself, in it's own time. Thousands will die in the process.

I've just realised that I'm espousing the Prime Directive from Star Trek.

But I believe it is right.

FyreFly · 29/08/2015 20:50

It's all very well saying scrap Trident etc, but do you have any idea of how much it costs to decommission nuclear armaments?? If anything it would cost us MORE in the short-term (5-10 years). And I'm not even going to get into the thousands of job losses. Even The Guardian thinks it's a bad idea...

Ideologies are not a bad thing, but they need to be able to stand up to the practical reality. Do I think we should be helping? Hell yes! Should that help take the form of allowing everyone who asks into the country? No. Does that mean we should take no refugees at all? Definitely not.

We need to target the smuggling rings and target aid towards the countries these people are fleeing. And it needs to be a concerted, international effort, not just Blair and Bush storming in and stomping all over the nation.

wafflyversatile · 29/08/2015 21:23

BMW we could do less to make their lives worse. The same as the richest people within countries acting to increase and protect their own wealth and power, the richest nations in the world operate to increase and protect their own wealth and power and in the process exploit poorer nations. This partially contributes to troubles in those countries.

The UK accepts all migrants, asylum seekers carte blanche

Firstly there is a lot of middle ground between accepting 0 refugees and accepting ALL the refugees. But most refugees don't come to the UK. Most don't have any interest in coming to the UK. 80% go to other developing nations, not Europe, not the Uk. And frankly if Turkey can take 1.5million we can take a few more than 0.

There isn't just one solution. Changing one cog in the system might help a bit for a while but not enough. We need wholesale change for a more equal world.

No, we're not going to get it, but we still need it if we're not going to see these crises again and again.

TwistedReach · 29/08/2015 23:01

BMW6- imagine if that had been said to Jews in Nazi Gernany- 'sort it out yourself'...

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