To be surprised It's take this long for this to hit the press.

[Bloodyknakard]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/aug/23/restaurant-tipping-policy-forces-waiters-to-pay-to-work

I'm amazed they kept it quiet for so long.
Given there was several threads on here when the other tips/service charge stories hit the press I'm surprised to see nothing of this on here.
I used to work as a manager for these people and I can assure you that staff incentives were certainly not where the money went 7/8 years ago....

I meant to say: thanks, Bloodyknakard, for drawing this to our attention.

Worked in catering for several years -was mainly a chef but also did some front of house at various times. And DP had a restaurant.
Tips are a really dodgy area...hard to do the best thing ...definitely this is not right (assuming a % of bills) but then I kind of see why they do - people not being honest about what they did get. Being put towards making the wages up to NMW and keeping card tips is definitely not on.

I think kitchen staff should get a share of the tips -not as much as the waiter but a share. People leave tips based on the food as well as the service - people don't say I had terrible food but the waiter was nice so here's a big tip - and if the waiter was ok but the food was fantastic they will leave a bigger tip. It is supposed to stop division bwteeen foh and kitchen staff...
And IME kitchen porters don't get above NMW...and chefs often (not always) have had to get qualifications - it isn't as much as a 'holiday job' and they don't earn high wages. I worked as head chef in an expensive restaurant we got a one waiter share split between all the kitchen staff added onto our wages. I start going out with a waiter and discovered when it was busy he was earning more than me in just cash tips for working fewer hours and with no responsibility...to say that rankled is an understatement.

I always leave cash tips. But cash tips aren't (at least in theory) tax free they are supposed to be declared as income by the waiter and once they are pooled and shared that tax payment becomes the employer's responsibility (you can delegate responsibility to someone - form a 'tronc' - the rules are really complicated, NI comes into it too.) Then if you pool tips you are relying on everyone handing them all in - and that doesn't always happen ...or it will be suspected that someone isn't.

When DP had a restaurant it was only small often just total 2 staff on quieter nights. The tips were shared at the end of the night between all the staff working - they were a team (and they were) - card tips were taken out of the cash take that night. That meant we paid any credit card fees on the tips but it was a small amount ... and it was a bit dodgy from the taxman's pov - they were pooled.
(actually a real problem because DP often worked in the kitchen - when he did he got a share (otherwise it wasn't fair when he didn't work the people that night got a much larger share) - which he declared ...but (as employers) we 'didn't know' what they getting as tips...)

Thanks for this thread. I always pay by card when we eat out but will ensure I have some cash on me for the tip in future. Some shocking info here!

Oh no, Turtle Bay? I love Turtle Bay :(
Although the service when I went was almost non-existent, we ended up leaving the money on the table even though we had planned to get dessert, maybe they are trying to minimise the total number of sales so the potential amount they have to pay is reduced?
If they got no sales at all, theyd get a guaranteed minimum wage amount of pay....

My understanding of this is that it isn't actually tips that they are being calculated on, but on their evening sales. I guess because the presumption was that maybe staff won't declare their tips to avoid paying. But the problem is that if someone does £400+ in sales in one evening, it doesn't necessarily follow that the staff member actually got tipped at all. I've sat next to tables where they just pay for their meal and don't even acknowledge the great service they've just had. And I think it's disgusting that companies can treat their NNW staff like this, essentially giving them an 'internal tax' for want of a better phrase, just for the honour of working for them.

So on an even worse note, what happens if the table ups and runs without paying? Does that staff member on NMW have to pay for the meal and the 30% contribution that they are expected to pay on top?

Wow. This has opened my eyes.

I used to work in a restaurant many years ago - not a chain. We all put tips in the jar, and were paid out weekly.

I think everyone got some - kitchen staff, waiting staff, washer upper etc. That is the fair way to do things.

Also got paid a reasonable hourly rate.

Signed. Not many more signatures needed to get the 40,000.
I had no idea they did this.

Disgusting!

I own a business where customers tip. Every tip is written down and every 4 months we share out the tips on a pro rata basis so everyone gets an amount based on how much they've worked. Our full timers get 250-300 every 4 months. Staff have earned the tips so they should be the ones to benefit!

I hate pooled tips and this policy is even worse.

Chefs and managers are usually salaried and so on higher hourly rates than waiting staff. I tip the waitress or waiter because they have done a good job and fully expect them to keep the tip for themselves.

When I was a waitress I worked in places that pooled tips and I used to just say I hadn't made any and pocketed my own tips and scarper before the pooled tips were handed out. I hate the policy. Hate it.

I used to have to pay 50% of my tips into a 'taxi fund' despite driving myself to work and never using staff taxis. I left in the end, I wasn't busting a gut to subsidise other people's commute.

Wow. I get that if say 10% of tips had to be handed back to be shared with other staff wait staff might lie about their tips but it would be a lot fairer than this.

I tip in cash, but if we've ordered a dearer bottle of wine then the percentage we tip might be lower (in that its no extra effort to open than a cheap bottle) I'd hate to think my waiter is losing out because of that.

We don't have a established tipping culture either do we? Some people don't (after all the staff get min wage), some round up/leave the change, some give 10%. I've not known people give more than 10% in the UK unless its a service charge for a group meal.

Yet another reason to avoid the chains I suppose (though I've known local restaurants to rip off staff too).

This is how some unscrupulous businesses are getting round the ban on making up the minimum wage from tips which came in a few years ago. They have found another way to boost their profits instead. It's very similar to how a lot of restaurants operate in the U.S. I think it's disgusting - these are low paid jobs as it is.

Indeed wowfudge i remember this blowing up couple years back.

This I why I hate the blinkered conservative view on work, its a broken system, with companies dodging tax and their duties as fair employer. this is 2015 for gods sake. Again this just shows how out of touch people are with how people in the service sector are getting shafted.

Appalling. Totally OK to share all tips with non front of house staff. Quite another thing to take money based on sales regardless of tip. Basically 3% of your tip immediately goes to the company. That's what prices on menus are for! To pay for the business! They need to up their prices rather than stealing from staff.

I always tip cash and ask waiting staff if they get to keep their tips.

If they choose to share it, that's fine, but I have decided to give a tip to that person. I'm sure waiting staff have to put up with foul and rude people and tips are a small compensation for that.

I'm aware that las iguanas and Cote do this, anywhere else?

I worked in an independent pub and the owners paid back 25p for every main meal and 5p for every pudding (this came out of the price of the meal). The money was pooled and divided out each shift end and given to us (waiting staff, bar staff and chefs) on top of our basic wage for that shift. Chefs got a bigger percentage than we did obviously.

Bearing in mind this was over 20 years ago, we would go home on a busy Saturday night with close to £30 for the shift.

This has been by far the most generous and fair way of being paid that I have experienced as a waitress or bar staff.

Have worked at many other places where we basically never saw tips.

I shall sign the petition. Pizza Express have been at it for years haven't they? I'm sure there was something about their service charges about 10 years ago.

lunch sorry for singling you out - but you do realise that is why rules like this are brought in - then you can't pocket tips?
Too many people doing what you used to do...
I don't think this rule is fair in the slightest but I do think everyone involved should get some recognition of doing a good job...if the food you served was dreadful on dirty crockery you wouldn't have got any tips...

IME (and I have a lot! from both sides but several years ago now) commis (junior) chefs were paid no more -if not less than waiting staff and kitchen porters (before NMW) almost certainly less - now I would imagine they are all paid NMW.

See I feel if you want tips you should bloody well earn them. I worked with some shit waiting staff who never pulled their weight yet still got a share of the tips. It's not on.

I don't agree with you there unLucky, people choose which job they want to do, and how well they do it. If I give a tip, I want it to go to the person who has served me.

I'm flabbergasted by this. It's basically sales commission but in reverse, isn't it?

So Las Iguanas actually get 103% of the amount you pay them, and the more you spend, the more your waiter has to pay to their employer?

In most industries, the person selling the product will take a percentage cut of the sales figures. I don't understand why catering should be different?

I do think everyone involved should get some recognition of doing a good job

Totally agree, but this is called wages. Everyone should be paid a living wage and shitty employers should not be subsidised by tips.

I think tipping should be banned.

As a customer I won't tip when the staff say they don't get to keep the tip.

The vast majority of customers tip for service nothing else and I find it insulting that someone seems it appropriate to disregard how I have chosen to spend my money by pooling tips.

The idea that a manager or head chef receives tips is outrageous

employees who aren't pulling their weight are due to shitty managers, tipping is a different discussion.

If someone isn't pulling their weight that is different issue ...doesn't mean tips shouldn't be pooled - does mean they need to work on teamwork and maybe on another way of rewarding staff.

Crisp & Project- so if your food was disgusting you would still leave a tip?

And as to rewarding all the staff and banning tips - a good point but restaurants rarely make a lot of money -lots fail.
They have large overheads. Staff costs may well be higher than the food costs.
Really basic standard is to aim for a 67% gross profit - means selling the food you buy for 3x what it cost you not inc VAT to get max 12% net profit.
So if you spend £10 in a restaurant on food £2 of that will be VAT that goes straight to the government (and they can claim little back cos food you buy is generally zero rated).
The food will have cost £2.67.
From the remaining £5.33 max £1.20 will be profit ...£4.13 will be overheads - which is mainly staff costs...and there will have been at least 3 people involved in getting that plate in front of you (chef,waiter,porter).
In order to pay them a 'living wage' how much more would you be prepared to pay for a meal out?

Disgraceful. If it was to share tips amongst staff then why is the % they have to hand over based on the sales they made/orders they took? That doesn't nessacerily bear any relevance on the tips they actually made.