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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think if the country is already 'too full up' we should probably stop having so many children?

207 replies

IceBeing · 24/08/2015 13:00

After listening to a discussion on a bus between two women, it would seem that the country is far to stretched to take in any refugees at the moment! We are full to busting and not enough money for services for those already here.

AIBU to wonder where the concerns of these people were when they had the (apparently) six kids that were along with them?

The refugees are already alive and in need of shelter, food, medical aid etc. Our unborn need not come and add to the problem....

So, maybe a China style policy...although we could probably afford to do 2 kids per family....unless we really are full to busting as indicated.

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LumelaMme · 26/08/2015 17:23

x-post re average Brit .

Werksallhourz · 26/08/2015 17:24

shove

The bit about the NHS was in the context of ice claiming Brits did not "deserve" the NHS any more than fleeing Syrians. I pointed out that we do "deserve" it because we created it, support it and advocate for it, and we also pay for it.

If someone comes to Britain and pays taxes, then they are paying towards the NHS, so it is a completely different scenario.

I talked about resources in the context of population growth in the ME and parts of Africa. I never made any comment about Brits having a right to a higher standard of living than people from the rest of the world.

I do think, however, that this notion that all Brits automatically have a higher standard of living than people from the rest of the world is a flawed belief, and can be quite an arrogant position to take. It feels to me to ignore the wealth and comfort of middle class lives in other nations in an attempt to paint "the other" as poverty-stricken, hopeless, unintelligent, and ultimately in need of Western intervention to save them from themselves.

IceBeing · 26/08/2015 17:27

werk the way you can tell we have a better standard of living that exists in other places is by the fact that people are risking their lives to move from where they are to here.

I am not claiming we have a better standard of living than Japan, or USA or Chile or anywhere that people aren't risking their lives to come here from.

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IceBeing · 26/08/2015 17:29

lum no worries on x-post. We do cause poverty to continue via our exploitation of lower worker pay in other countries (think call centres for one). This is just one example...there are very many.

Our entire lifestyle is tied to using more of the resources than our fair share (and more than the planet can actually sustain long term). IF we are gaining you can be sure others are losing by it.

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travellinglighter · 26/08/2015 17:32

The population replacement rate is actually higher than 2 because some people don’t reproduce and others kill themselves before they manage to reproduce. The replacement rate is 2.1 per couple and our actual rate is 1.9 children per couple. Our population is increasing not because of immigration but because the elderly are selfishly clinging on to life. The consequence of this, as has been said previously, is that we need more people to look after the chronically ill elderly. It’s alright for the EDF/BNP/UKIP/National front etc to bang on about immigration but I can’t see Nigel Farage queuing up to wipe granny’s arse. Ever been into an old folks home lately? It’s like downtown Warsaw in the staff room.

travellinglighter · 26/08/2015 17:33

By the way, just reread my post and I come across as a fascist. It was meant to be light hearted so long live granny and Ludmilla is fine in my books.

(I’m a Lefty liberal, honest)

LumelaMme · 26/08/2015 17:39

The answer is there is no ethical defence of our treatment of anyone not born in the UK as lesser.
Where do I start? That statement implies that we should not only have completely open borders, but should be sending much more in the way of healthcare and education and housing off to less developed countries than we do now.

Totally open borders: anyone can come who feels like it. It's a recipe for total chaos. It really is.

Werksallhourz · 26/08/2015 17:41

ice The answer is there is no ethical defence of our treatment of anyone not born in the UK as lesser.

Within our sovereign territorial borders or outside? Because if you are talking about outside our territorial borders, then there is an enormous difference ... namely, that we, as a sovereign nation, have no direct authority or power outside our territorial borders.

To contravene that is a massive ethical issue.

You also seem to be shifting the ground here to be "born in the UK" versus "resident in the UK" whereas, previously, you seemed to be talking about "born and/or resident in the UK" versus "not born and not resident in the UK". Fleeing Syrians, on the whole, are not resident in the UK; we've hardly given any asylum.

Binkybix · 26/08/2015 17:46

Our population is increasing not because of immigration but because the elderly are selfishly clinging on to life

That's not true - I think ONS estimate that 60% of UK's population growth in last decade has been due to immigration. I don't know if that means just people who have moved here, or people who have moved here plus the children they have subsequently had.

Dadistired1 · 26/08/2015 18:13

Ice Please don't be fooled by the Green Party, they are not all that they make out to be.

I voted green in 2014 elections and know many members who are the biggest hypocrites in regards to the environment, even green leadership is hypocritical.

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/baroness-jenny-jones-claims-for-more-taxis-than-all-of-her-colleagues-combined-because-she-lives-in-9739773.html

Taxies are just as bad as driving.

However from what I have read in this thread you have a great passion for environmental issues but your going about them in a way that is too harsh too unrealistic and too alarmist.

The way too improve the environment is not to demand people stop doing things or stop having children, the way we really improve the environment is by developing a technological way of maintaining the same lifestyle with less environmental damage.

Also in regards to your own citizens thing, of course a country should value its own citizens above non citizens. Its unlucky to be born ugly or be born disabled or be born poor, life is not fair. Currently British Citizens pay for things such as the NHS so should be put first, charity begins at home.

Dadistired1 · 26/08/2015 18:18

Also open borders to Calais migrants is not the right direction to take and will lead to UKIP becoming much more electable. Especially in a political climate where 78% of people want immigration reduced.

Im lefty liberal as well, but this thread makes me feel centre-right. Grin

Werksallhourz · 26/08/2015 18:43

werk the way you can tell we have a better standard of living that exists in other places is by the fact that people are risking their lives to move from where they are to here.

This is a naive reading, and also, in my view, reflects rather paternalistic imperialist perspectives that, even to this day, fuel the "utter poverty" narrative about the developing world, which is rather insulting to the people of those regions. The middle classes in many developing countries in the Middle East, Asia and Africa have a better standard of living than many working class Brits.

Particularly in the Middle East, outside areas now affected by ISIS, the lives of the middle classes are not unpleasant whatsoever; indeed, in some ME countries, their middle class standard of living is significantly better than our middle class standard of living -- and I am not including the Gulf in that.

Again, I worked for an African project a number of years ago that tried to correct misconceptions about Africa by going into schools and giving talks and presentations about what Africa really looked like, because, in Britain, we have been consistently exposed to a certain narrative about the continent ... that everyone is starving, that there are no amenities, no economies, everywhere is desert, no one has a car and many of the countries are perpetually at war. And it is just not true.

I think the danger here is confusing migration for "a better life" with migration for "an easier life". There are a lot of false perceptions about Britain that fuel migrant flows, particularly from Africa. There was a book written by a female journalist in the early 00s I cannot remember the title, but it had a yellow cover, and she was a broadsheet journalist where she went to Lampedusa to interview African migrants that had landed on the island. She found that almost all of them believed that, in Britain, the authorities gave out new cars free. They had been told that if they came to Britain, they would be given nice houses, lots of money, free phones, free clothes, you name it. They really believed the streets were paved with gold.

Another aspect of this is that if you are really poverty stricken, you can't afford the journey. There are reports of some of these migrants paying thousands of dollars to people traffickers. They are not exactly destitute. To pay this kind of money means you have more wealth at your disposal than a hellova lot of working class Brits.

TheSweeper · 27/08/2015 10:04

I need a LIKE button for all of Werksallhourz's posts....

Scoobydoo8 · 27/08/2015 10:19

There was a tv prog about the poor in India. One man lived with his wife and 7 children on a patch of pavement. With the situation like this in the most overpopulated countries I would say it's pointless fretting about over population and family size here. We will go on until the earth bursts at the seams.

Unless some nasty virus wipes out vast numbers. Then we will start over again.

As regards migration - we have been fed the line that people want to live in the UK because they admire our way of life etc etc - which is and always has been bollox and I think the anti immigration stance of many people is in response to this. If it had been admitted from the start that immigrants come to give their DCs better wealth opportunities (even if they dislike many aspects of the british way of life) then we might have put in controls earlier and have expected more from the immigrants and the gov made better efforts at integration.

Refugees are a different matter. I agree that only the wealthier can afford to bribe the people traffickers. I don't know what the answer is but to treat it like a temporary blip is daft the 'flood' of people could go on for ever, or until the UK is in as parlous state as the countries people are leaving - then they won't want to come!

MyrtleMoaning · 27/08/2015 10:21

Ugh, what a vile thread, and some pretty vile responses to it.

Where's your compassion, OP? :(

Scoobydoo8 · 27/08/2015 10:24

Ugh, what a vile thread, and some pretty vile responses to it

Thanks for adding to the debate Moaning - but then why clearly explain a point when you can stand on your do-gooding soapbox and moan!

MyrtleMoaning · 27/08/2015 10:35

There's no need for a do-gooding soap box, the posts speak for themselves. And anyone who knows me - long time poster, name changed, and I'd doubt I'm known for a do-gooder stance.

Scoobydoo8 · 27/08/2015 11:23

There are 193 responses, nice to have them trashed - people have at least made the effort to respond. Why don't you.

MyrtleMoaning · 27/08/2015 12:27

I have.

The thread is something I never thought I'd see on MN. Full of vitriol, discrimination, and racism. It's shameful.

IceBeing · 27/08/2015 12:41

myrtle wtf? you are accusing me of racism for saying that all human beings should be treated equally and that if we can't provide a good standard of living for people already alive, we should have a hard think about how many new lives we should add to the masses?

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IceBeing · 27/08/2015 12:43

I personally have been very impressed by the majority of the level of debate. werk and dadis have both made interesting points, which though I mostly disagree have certainly caused me to question my assumption that if one could wave a wand and create global equality...one should...

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MyrtleMoaning · 27/08/2015 12:47

If you can't see it, there's no point in debating it. I'm out.

IceBeing · 27/08/2015 12:47

dadis oh I know the Green Party are not comprised of saints.

I think that not destroying the global ecosystem is the most important challenge in the history of the human race. For example it is even more important than profit margins for big multinationals....which I totally accept are themselves incredibly important for the fabric of society.

If you are floating in a boat, in choppy shark infested waters it makes sense not to make any sudden steering changes...to not risk rocking the boat....unless you are headed straight for Niagara falls. Then you have to steer and be damned I think!

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IceBeing · 27/08/2015 12:48

...okay...or maybe I can't see it because it isn't there...

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Moreshabbythanchic · 27/08/2015 13:17

Some people just look for an excuse to shout racism.

I have rtt but not contributed as I'm a bit of a fence sitter but I didn't notice any racism, maybe I should read it again.

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