The bedroom tax

[jonicomelately]

How can anyone support a Government who inflict this on people? There are no words...

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/brutality-bedroom-tax-exposed-disgraceful-9911421

Pensioners are exempt from bedroom tax anyway.

They may well be disabled Oldsue but where is the logic in removing three people who have lived for many years in a property which is adapted for them so that it can be occupied by a married couple, who will use fewer bedrooms?

longtimelurker101 as the bedroom tax is a reduction in benefit only pensioners who get housing benefit are exempt, if a pensioner has too much income and is not entitled to HB then the BT cannot affect them as there are no benefits to reduce.

If you are of pension credit age you are exempt. Now seeing as virtually all those living in social housing who are pensioners will be getting pension credits, they are exempt.

BT does not effect HB, only effects you if you live in social housing. You can move from a social housing place with lower rent but more rooms and into a smaller private sector place and get more HB to pay for it. This is not about cost.

Rubbish, my Dad is over pension credit age, pension credit is a means tested benefit, my Dad earned too much with his combined wages and pension to qualify for pension credit, therefore he was not entitled to it and not entitled to HB and therefore was not affected by the bedroom tax, not because he is a pensioner but because he was not getting housing benefit and the bedroom tax is a reduction in housing benefit and again if you don't qualify for a benefit then there is no benefit to be reduced is there?

Not all pensioners get pension credit, my Husband is a pensioner and gets full state pension plus a second pension as he worked for 45 years, I too have worked for 45 years and if I was of pension age today I would get the same amount of pension as he does (have had a future pensions statement) that would take our household over the income threshold for pension credit and we wouldn't get it, if we were in social housing we MIGHT qualify for HB but it certainly would not because we would be on a benefit which would give us an automatic passport to other benefits which is what pension credit is.

sorry we would NOT be on a benefit

Oldsu you've gone a bit swivle eyed there. Obviously if you're not getting HB it doesn't apply to you anyway. But it only applies to your HB if you are in social housing, not private rent housing.

Finally, no pensioner who recieves HB is goingto have it reduced because they have a spare room, therefore pensioners are exempt. My point stands.

Oh really your statement If you are of pension credit age you are exempt. Now seeing as virtually all those living in social housing who are pensioners will be getting pension credits, they are exempt is NOT true as I have (in my swivel eye way) demonstrated.

And there is nothing in the article to suggest that the pensioner couple who are now in the house are getting housing benefit my point is that they could very well be paying full rent .

Why the f'ck cant we have a discussion about things like the bedroom tax without kicking pensioners I for one am getting fed up with it

Helena- I agree with all that's said on the thread about how this family should not have to live like this. That does not mean it is ethically right for the family to post this picture. I'm sure they wouldn't have posted a picture of themselves naked with their genitals blurred out to prove a point and I don't see why they should do that for someone who cannot make their own decision. I wonder what an IMCA would say if involved?

Nerr i get exactly where you are coming from ...i do.

Without the picture though most of the public would gloss over it or turn a blind eye. It is hard to do that without photographic evidence.

If there had been no film of the liberation of Aushwitz it would have made it even easier for the deniers and those films are still used in broadcasts about the war today as a shameful time in history. It could be that this photo and experience and others are used in broadcasts in the future and to teach future generations about the persecution of disabled ppl and poor ppl in the name of ideology in the early 21st century.

Sorry i meant it is hard to to that WITH photographic evidence.

Oldsu, the point I made was the pensioners are exempt from bedroom tax, or the really the removal of a % of HB. Now if you are of pension credit age, and not receiving it, you won't be getting HB and therefore won't be subject to bedroom tax.

You demonstrated that someone who is not in receipt of benefits and can well afford the rent will not be effected. When the "tax" refers to the the removal of a % of a benefit, if you don't qualify for the benefit you won't be effected.

However to quoute from the DWP themselves:

"If either one of a couple is of pensionable age, their housing benefit does not get cut."

Therefore pensioners are exempt from bedroom tax.

Actually yes it is ok to bring pensioners into this. They are exempt from this benefit cut, they have had all sorts of their "benefits" kept while millions around them are losing out, all in the name of deficit reduction, when actually its really about ideology.

The young, the poor, the disabled have all had some cuts, but pensioners remain immune. Funny that isn't it.

And yes, you do come across as a loon.

Surely if there are no suitable houses (suitable as in required disability access etc, not just knocking them back because you don't like the view or something) then you should not be subject to this tax? I also don't agree with people over 65 being allowed to have extra rooms. It must have felt like a real kick in the teeth for this family to have an older couple who don't need the space moved in to the house.

But (and it's a big but because I don't know the family or their situation!) I do wonder why the family didn't club together in this situation to help keep him in the home while they fought it? The brother is a full time carer, but the wife could presumably be working, they have two children themselves, and we don't know if there are other siblings or relatives around. I would have no issue providing a little extra each week to keep a disabled relative in their home while it was being sorted out. Possibly even community groups that may have been willing to fundraise to help. It might have at least got them some time.

Midnite the man in this case needs round the clock care.

So basically the woman should be working.......now lets be real here If she did have a job i bet she would be doing that plus the childcare plus some of the care. Because it usually falls to women Look how many women on these boards are expected to do the lions share when it comes to elderly PILs as well as their own elderly parents.

And siblings and relatives..... yeah that will work because there are SOOOOOOOOOOO many wonderful employment rights now that they can take time off to help out and not be in fear of their jobs There is carers unpaid leave but its only to care for close relatives and its not set in stone.
There is another thread where an MNers zero hours contract employer wouldnt even sign a form so she could claim for jury service. So just because something should be done in theory does not mean you are going to be able to access it in practice.

HelenaDove, I did say it was a 'big but' because I don't know the family. But we do know that there are no young children for this couple (both had a child from a previous relationship who has now moved out of the home). If they are adults and working, then it's not unreasonable to consider whether or not they would be able to contribute a few pounds to help a disabled relative to keep their home. They shouldn't have to, but if it meant keeping this man in his home whilst they fought with the council to have the decision overruled. The article says they were evicted over arrears, so did they make any attempt to pay? The arrears were 300, so I'm guessing they were still paying the rent and just not the extra tax? Sometimes we have to make sacrifices for family. I had to get a part time job at 15 to pay for some of my own things because my parents were paying out a lot of money to keep my grandmother in a nursing home. It was just expected that we all chip in as a family to help out, and not leave the burden to one person.

My Mum and Dad live in a naice road in the SE. They, and all their friends, live in houses that are massively bigger, with more bedrooms, than they need. Their children will never be able to afford anything remotely similar. They worked a few decades, normally with the wife working very little or not at all. No one fought in any wars or saved us form the Nazis.

There is an issue with housing. It won't be solved by making the poor and disabled move.

They shouldn't have to move because of a benefit cut that is driven by politics not necessity. Its real peoples lives being effected by policies to distract Daily Mail readers while the elite make off with most of the countries wealth. The entire thing is disingenuous, cruel, and downright disgraceful and damages the most vulnerable in society.

Midnite you make some good points about everyone chipping in some money. Its a fair point.

But it should still never have happened in the first place.

The bedroom tax would only be fair if everyone who is in a property that is larger than they need can be offered a suitable smaller property

And if the rent for a small property was less than that for a bigger one.

Don't you all realise you, ie tax payers, are paying more for this? One and two bedroomed places are so sought after now the rents for them are higher than three and in some cases four bedroomed places.

As the poster from Liverpool said, the council is now forking out more money in HB to house people in smaller properties.

And I would guess that money is now going to private landlords.

I'm bewildered by all the people who think this si a good thing. It is punishing people for having a disability, or a child who has left home, or a child who has died. It has cost more than the old system purely in financial terms and who knows what is happening in terms of damage to society and to individual mental health.

longtimelurker101 stop the nasty name calling just because I disagree with you

You made a comment If you are of pension credit age you are exempt. Now seeing as virtually all those living in social housing who are pensioners will be getting pension credits, they are exempt that comment is untrue but you call me a loon because I know more then you do.

I get it you are one of the pensioner bashers you have made that clear

If you call me a loon again I will report you

As someone who grew up sharing a room with a sibling of the opposite sex, and my mum until we were early teens (5 of us in a 2bed house, grandparents moved into living room when we were teens and I shared with brother until I moved out at 17) I actually agree with the bedroom tax in principle because I know how hard it can be to live with over crowding.

What I hugely diagree with is the way it was implemented. There was no grace period to allow tennants to move, also moving is impossible for some tennants due to council rules on rent arrears, so even families willing to move to escape the tax were unable to and thus stuck in a debt spiral. The tax should have been implement for tennants who have the oppertunity to move into an available suitable house, but are refusing for whatever reason. Swaps should have been encouraged and I'd have liked to have seen a 6 month warning period before the cuts were made.

Although I'm a lefty, I actually agree with some of the tory policy however cannot stand the way they implement them, which is why I think they get the nickname "nasty party".

Plenty of pensioners in social housing do not get pension credit or housing benefit. Plenty of working age people in social housing don't get housing benefit either.
For those pensioners in social housing who do get housing benefit they are not subject to the reduction in benefits known as the bedroom tax regardless of how many spare rooms they have whereas those of working age are subject to the reduction even if no smaller properties can be found for them to move into.
I feel that the reduction in housing Benefits should apply to all age groups who are under occupying as long as a suitable smaller property has been offered to them. It is quite unfair to penalise somebody for being unable to move somewhere smaller due to there being nothing smaller available. If is also unfair to penalise those of working age whilst ignoring the older people who are under occupying.

But it only applies to your HB if you are in social housing, not private rent housing.

When you consider that this isn't a tax, this isn't strictly true. Renters in the private sector claiming HB have never been allowed to claim enough to pay for rooms they don't need. Now a change has been made so that both social and private tenants can only claim HB for the number of rooms they need.

So the so called 'bedroom tax' does apply to private renters, and it did long before the ridiculous term was ever thought up.

The reduction in HB might not be saving money now, but hopefully years into the future it will, because although pensioners are exempt, the next generation to become pensioners will have already moved out of their oversized homes if they can't pay for them when their children leave home. It's not just about saving money anyway, it's about making best use of the hosting stock, and in the future there will hopefully be more family sized homes available because they won't be full of under occupying pensioners.

The older people might not have moved out of the larger properties in decades to come because many of them will only become eligible for housing benefit upon reaching state retirement age and giving up work. Therefore the bedroom tax will never affect them.
Of course many people won't even be eligible for housing benefit even during retirement so will never be affected.

That's a fair point and your right, but tbh I couldn't begrudge someone of pension age staying in their social housing property if they've paid full rent on it without benefits for the whole of their working life.

And of course some people will never be eligible for HB so won't be affected, but that's a non issue. If people aren't claiming a benefit then there's nothing to reduce.