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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Scottish vs English primary school- Aibu?

71 replies

susannahmoodie · 20/08/2015 22:26

My ds1 is 5 in January and is starting in reception in September. We live in the north of England. I have a friend from uni who is English but lives in Edinburgh. Her Ds1 is a month older than mine. I met up with her the other day and I started talking about my ds going to school- she said that she couldn't believe I was sending him as he was far too young, that they will be deferring her ds's start so that he will not start until he is nearly 6, and was generally very sniffy about the fact that my ds would be starting at 'such a young age'. Now, I understand that the Scottish system allows children who will be young for the year to defer. Even though my ds is younger than hers, as a winter baby he will be far from the youngest in his year group, whereas I understand the Scottish cut off is feb/March, so her ds will be amongst the youngest. But even so, I don't have the option of deferring and even if I did, I wouldn't as I think he is more than ready for school. She kept going on about how cruel it was to make kids 'sit down and do sums', but having looked around my ds's school I know that it won't be like that at all- it is very much a "learning though play set up", with free flow indoor/outdoor and lots of 'forest school' activities which my ds will love.

I also don't really get the point about being the youngest in the year- surely they have to have a cut off somewhere? I know there is some evidence that summer borns (in England) are disadvantaged but Someone has to be the youngest? I have another Scottish friend with a feb bday who didn't defer and so when we started uni she was only 17.5 and she said it was great as she felt she had a 'year in hand' over other people so could take a gap year etc whereas I as a winter baby felt pressure to get on with things (my mum used to say I'd had my gap year when I was 4!).

I'm not saying the English system is ideal, far from it, but Aibu to think my friend was rude to question my son starting school?

OP posts:

mathanxiety · 21/08/2015 03:20

Mine started Kindergarten in the US at age 5 and turned 6 during the school year. I really liked the later start. Even in that Kindergarten year there was little formal teaching of anything. They really got stuck in the following year, First Grade, which they started at age 6 and turned 7. They were all really ready for formal education at that stage.

But I agree with this from Treaclesoda:
'As an overall policy, I'm not sure about it. But that's the system at the moment, you know your child best and it was rude of your friend to criticise your decision.'

wtffgs · 21/08/2015 03:27

"You are lucky that education and not ideology has been the focus of government policy in England in the last 15 years"

I assume the PP is
A) a resident of England, Wisconsin
B) has not set foot in a school for 15 years
or
C) is Nicky Morgan

(There is no emoticon for this degree of incredulity)

mathanxiety · 21/08/2015 05:44

Where is that like button when you really need it?

Ubik1 · 21/08/2015 06:18

Deferring is fashionable at the moment.

You do end up with children who are older and further ahead developmentally sharing the same class.
There are children who will turn 7 before others turn 6!
It can be frustrating for the older one if their peers are that much younger.

Deferring is fashionable at the moment but I think was intended to be used for children who were not yet ready for school. Most children are.

Original poster

susannahmoodie · 21/08/2015 06:29

Yes I wondered if it was a bit of a mc Edinburgh thing??

Also surprised by the comments about it being ideologically driven compared to the English system! All the Scottish teachers I know seem to have a much easier ride than English ones (I am one!). But if there is a lack of accountability then I suppose that causes other problems.

OP posts:

toomuchtooold · 21/08/2015 06:33

who wants to be 17 at uni when everyone is out enjoying freshers week and you can't go?

In my day you had plenty of Scottish students (including me) going straight to uni after S5 so some of them not even 17! The student unions turn a blind eye largely, I mean if you got into a drinking competition they might look a bit at you but if you wanted to go and see a band and have a half of cider nobody minded

whattheseithakasmean · 21/08/2015 06:34

There is definitely a lack of accountability in Scottish schools and CforE is appalling, although mainly at the High School level, but that is for another thread.

In Scotland, we don't have a reception year, it is straight into P1, so starting a wee bit later makes sense in that context. In any case, your friend has no right to lecture & judge on your reasonable choices and options.

miniHovis · 21/08/2015 06:52

The cut off in Scotland isn't August? It's end of March/April. My August baby was 5 when he started p1 and was one of the oldest in his year, I don't know anyone apart from 1 person who has deferred for a year and that was because of other reasons not her ds age

Original poster

susannahmoodie · 21/08/2015 07:04

No one has said the cut off isAugust, have they?

It is August/sept on England, but I thought it was feb/March in Scotland?

OP posts:

ShadowLine · 21/08/2015 07:07

I suppose OPs friend may not realise that the cut offs are different in England and Scotland?

i.e. January baby in Scotland = one of the youngest in the year. January baby in England = just slightly older than average in the year.

Altinkum · 21/08/2015 07:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ipsos · 21/08/2015 07:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rainuntilseptember15 · 21/08/2015 07:43

Can someone clarify the "lack of accountability" claim for Scottish schools?

Spartans · 21/08/2015 07:51

Yanbu....because it's entirely your decision and nothing to do with her. Dd was 4 + 6 weeks when she started school and loved it. She has excelled and hasn't been held back by her age at all.

Ds will be 4 + 5 months and is ready. He has been going on mornings since he was 3. Last night he even asked to go to school, today. He misses it. I am sure he will be fine too. He is my child and so it's my decision. I would defer him if I thought he wasn't ready.

Icimoi · 21/08/2015 08:06

I do think there is a lot to be said for the system in other countries where children start school at around 6 and the evidence demonstrates that children end up with the same or better results than we do. DSs had a number of problems when he started school due to mild dyslexia; if he had been allowed to start two years later those problems would be minimised.

serialworrier · 21/08/2015 08:17

My son is a November birthday and I am in England, so I was glad that he started school when he was nearly 5 and not just 4. I'm sure some kids thrive starting school at 4, others probably could do with waiting until they are 6. I think it was about right for my ds.

The point about deferring in England is that you are not really deferring, you are missing out reception, and go straight into year 1. That has its own problems such as missing out all the reception work and as such is generally not encouraged.

I have good friends in Germany and their kindergarten is similar to our reception. When they start school at 6 it is very serious and they have more homework than English kids do. So I don't think it really matters when you start school - there will be advantages and disadvantages with both.

littlejohnnydory · 21/08/2015 08:54

Wales is the same as England treaclesoda.

I would always go with a later start. Even children who appear ready will benefit from having their play based learning time extended.

The admissions code is changing next year to give parents of children born in the Summer term the right to send them to Reception at Compulsory School Age rather than them having to go stright into Year 1.

summerbornchildren.org/2015/07/28/dfe-official-confirms-commitment-to-changing-the-code/

DisappointedOne · 21/08/2015 10:33

The timing may be the same in Wales but the curriculum certainly isn't. Learning up to age 7 is heavily play-based. It follows the Scandinavian model rather than the formal English model.

(DD was 6 weeks of turning 4 when she started full time at school nursery. She's going into reception in September as a rising 5.)

TwistyKnicksFuckOff · 21/08/2015 12:18

In Europe children start at 3 usually, it's like kindergarten so very play based but they also learn things. They don't have to start until 6 but I don't know anyone who does that. The children love it.

I find the UK system a bit mad and over complicated, friends talking of deferring and then staggered starts with half days/full days, what a palaver.

Here it's simple, at 3 they start school, full days and have a fabulous time.

It works that the year your child turns 3 they can start P3. January-December, much easier imo.
P3, P4 & P5 and then normal school. By then all the children know each other and the teachers and they are used to the setting.

StampyMum · 21/08/2015 12:43

I deferred my DS at his Scottish primary school - he has a Feb birthday. In this area, almost everyone does it, so if I hadn't, DS would have been a whole year and a half younger than the eldest child in his class. He wasn't ready for school aged 4.5 - but he's done really well since starting aged 5.5. Your friend is a bit of an idiot for comparing apples with pears though- I'd say her kid is at more of a disadvantage from inheriting her brains than your DS is from starting school aged 4

StampyMum · 21/08/2015 12:43

TheNewStatesman · 21/08/2015 13:12

I think people get very hung up on the word "school". In countries where children start later, they are usually in kindy or childcare from 3, if not earlier.

Booboostwo · 21/08/2015 13:15

We're n France and DD started pre-school last year at 3.3 yo. She absolutely loved it. It was just mornings, she made loads of friends, it helped her a lot with overcoming her shyness and the curriculum was all play based. The 'work' they did was colouring sheets, learning about inside and outside by climbing in and out of cardboard boxes, they had stories read to them and they learnt basic words in English and Spanish. They also had brilliant outings, e.g. to pick apples, to visit a gallery, to see a puppet show and to do a dance they had learnt on a proper theatre stage.

Roseformeplease · 21/08/2015 15:44

No I am

a) a Teacher
b) In Scotland
c) Well aware of the over-testing in English schools. But, at least, teachers ARE accountable. That is not the case round here.

Maybe the English system is ideologically driven too. But, at least, it is not driven by the ideology of "other". All Scottish animals. Scottish poems. Scottish geography. Scottish contribution to WW1. Teachers being seen as beyond criticism, regardless of their results.

Even the name of the new exams (Nationals) is driven by the SNP's determination to become independent - not educational ideology, but Nationalism, red in tooth and claw.

Sorry OP. Off to drink wine and contemplate week 2 of term.

pippitysqueakity · 21/08/2015 16:00

Not sure how English children do one more year at school. English primary Yr R-Yr6, Scottish P1-P7.

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