To thinks its not racist to want to leave the EU

[PiaMia]

I am a eurosceptic, I was called racist by a pro-Eu left winger (on twitter) for saying i think the U.K could trade with the world more instead of the eu. I also said leaving the E.U would mean a complete and equal immigration points based system for the whole world. I also used Greece as an example of the Eu being for big business and anti democratic.

1. Im sick of the whole eurosceptic movement being smeared because of the idiots in Ukip.

1. I dont understand how any of what I said was racist.

So what does mumsnet jury think, Aibu.

I am a waverer on the EU (and not racist - what a silly accusation) but if I had to vote now, I'd vote to leave. Greece was the tipping point but I was always uncomfortable about the cost of all the bureaucracy, and the free movement of people.

A bit off-topic ...I can maybe see a problem if the Scots, NI and the Welsh vote to stay in but the overall UK vote is to leave because the majority of English voters want to.

EUSSR is a good one.

Of course it's not racist, you were just having a twitter discussion with an idiot.

I see the European Army as a very bad idea but Schengen essentially as a good one - provided we then all put the resources into the outside borders of Europe.

EUSSR is another of those anti terms that make me . But then I'm essentially pro Europe.

Preventing Anchevette paste being imported from South Africa is not hearsay.

Bear no, that's protectionism and the throwing up of trade barriers, which carries enormous ethical implications and is one of the things the EU does that harms - in preventing developing countries from trading on fair terms, the EU is conspiring to keep them poor. It's a complex picture.

To answer your OP, no, that statement is not racist.

Btw, we aren't a part of Schengen...

Some people who want to leave the EU are racist, but not all are.

You don't soind racist (based on your OP) but you do sound woefully underinformed.

YANBU for your opinion, YABU a bit for using EUSSR... I don't think everyone wanting to leave is racist. I don't support leaving the EU, mainly because I work in financial services and from personal research as well as opinions amongst people much more knowledgeable than myself, I have very little doubt that the Pound won't crash as soon as we leave. Although I think the outcome of the referendum will be a yes to staying in the EU.

I suspect your difficulty is that you tied it in with immigration, but as you haven't responded to questions about what exactly you did say it's hard to judge. I think we would have to be utterly stupid to leave the EU.

It's not racist to want to leave the EU.

Just wrong.

I don't think it's racist. I'm pro-EU and a giant lefty, but people are using racism as part of the argument, no doubt about it.

Also, there is no EU-Megastate happening. It's just right wing scaremongering.

I think there could be some better trade deals of course...but I enjoy the sense of community. Sadly, the immigration thing is the sticking point for most, sighting how immigrants are wrecking the UK because we don't have the money for them. To be fair. There is the money. It's just been spent on dumb things like HS2 and we're losing money by the government selling stuff off cheaply, like RBS today.

I will agree that immigration has gone a bit nuts recently. In terms of sheer numbers, but that's it. I'm happy for it to continue if things can be balanced out across Europe in terms of Economies and the like.

I just want everyone to be mates, as people are much stronger together than apart.

I have plenty of love for people of all cultures, and have time for anyone.

Did you know that Norway and Sweden aren't EU members? But they are part of the Schengen agreement and the European Free Trade Agreement. And let's not forget Liechtenstein (sp?)

Anyway, I am undecided on the whole thing. To leave the EU is not necessarily to leave Europe, which is a good thing in my opinion.

But honestly, I am not informed enough to make an educated choice.

And as for being racist, it doesn't sound like you were. I liked Mr Farage's idea of an Australian points system. Why should we be a free for all when we are barely supporting our own? Having said that, I am sure that is the tip of the iceberg and is far more complicated than that!

It is VERY much more complex.

We can support "our own". But fact is, our government chooses not to these days.

The UK presents it's self as the paragon of freedom, liberalism and acceptance, yet, every wave of immigration has dealt with the same problems over the last 100 years. Blacks, Indians...Chinese...they've all been marginalised and hated because they're different.

They were blamed for all of societies problems, and still are.

Fact is, this isn't about economics. It's about different people "being on our land". It's the same thing as always. If there was no financial crisis, people wouldn't suddenly want to get rid of all the migrants who are coming here and working MUCH MORE than the indigenous population.

Contrary to the right wing lies that somehow, tax paying immigrants are costing the nation, they work way more than Brits do. They take jobs that are available and at the same wages we are paid. They aren't paid under minimum wage by employers, unless they're super sketchy ones, of which there really aren't that many.

They contribute to the tax bill, and therefore, add to the economy.

If it's a matter of space...we have around 1 million vacant properties in the UK, so, saying "there is no room for them" is a lie.
Saying they have pushed up rents...also a lie. They have gone up because no one can afford to buy a house anymore, and because the government isnt making it easy to build new properties, this trend is likely to continue. It has nothing to do with immigration.

There are of course some big problems with how the EU is run. But I like it in concept. The mood across Europe is a reaction to the economic downturn. There are of course some valid concerns, but it's mainly anger directed at the most vulnerable group, which is the group without a voice, and no one really to speak on their behalf on a national level, considering there are so many immigrants that have been on these shores for many many years.

I also get frustrated at the way debates about the EU always shrug off the issue of democratic accountability as a small price to pay for the supposed economic benefits of membership (themselves debatable) and the stuff about workers' rights. As though it's absolutely fine to have a legislative body you can't vote for or get rid of because once they made some rules about workers' rights. Because unaccountable legislative bodies throughout history have always shown themselves to be trustworthy and acting in the best interests of the little people

Different context, but I was reading today an essay by the late Robert Conquest, historian of Soviet Russia, in response to some luvvies writing a letter to the Times to protest against American involvement in the Bay of Pigs. He points out that these luvvies seem to be turning a blind eye to totalitarianism where that totalitarian government appears to be enacting 'progressive' measures that in some way excuses their dictatorship. I think it's worth reposting, as his prose is so much better than mine:

The vital point (the totalitarian grip) is played down, simply because a social programme of an apparently progressive type is being put through: the simple old confidence trick played by Rakosi and Beirut, in whose frightful regimes in Hungary and Poland several of the signatories found equal promise. These are now admitted to have been terrorist bureaucracies without popular support and without even the economic justifications then claimed as an excuse. For political liberty is not some old-fashioned Garibaldian prejudice. It is the essential to social progress, as Marx himself saw clearly. If it is sacrificed in the name of economic and social advance, the social and economic measures themselves get out of hand. Such is the lesson of Eastern Europe where irresponsible planners produced crises and misery far worse than those afflicting comparable capitalist countries—at the same time creating a privileged economic stratum. When a regime is undertaking, or claiming to undertake, the social measures they approve, the signatories waive all standards in the political field. This is as short- sighted as it is cynical. For even a very slight acquaintance with the Communist movement would tell them that decent standards in all fields go together.

The italics are mine. Obviously he is talking about Communists, where I am talking about an unaccountable transnational bureaucracy with aspirations to a European superstate. (Anyone who doubts that should read the Five Presidents' Report, published this year by Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission, along with Djisselbloem, Draghi, Schulz and Tusk.)

I emphasise those lines in Conquest's essay because I think the fundamental issue is that no amount of progressive social legislation or more-or-less-provable claims about economic gain can excuse the EU's democratic deficit; and the democratic deficit can't be got rid of, because a majority of European peoples don't really want a European superstate so if one is created without their say it will ipso facto not be a democratic state.

Sorry - should have included link to the whole Conquest essay.

Not racist at all. I am Pro EU.

No one will let that happen OTheHugeManatee...It just won't. We are a far stronger people than essays like that suggest. Just more scaremongering.

You can say 'scaremongering' all you like but that doesn't make it scaremongering. The EU has a serious democratic deficit combined with real ambitions towards greater integration at supranational level. And yet it just doesn't get talked about - all we get is this sterile argument about economics.

I'm neither right-wing, nor a scaremongerer, nor a racist, nor a Little Englander, nor any of the accusations that routinely get levelled at people who criticise the EU. I am instinctively pro-European co-operation, have lived in 3 European countries, speak two European languages other than English fluently. My first meaningful political memory was the fall of the Berlin Wall (I lived in Germany at the time) and it still brings a tear to my eye watching the footage. But over the last ten years I have gone from staunchly pro-EU to regretfully but passionately eurosceptic. I think it has laudable ideals, but has deteriorated into its current state as a failed neoliberal experiment that's papering over a phenomenally right-wing set of economic principles with some dubious top-down 'human rights' stuff. What happened recently in Greece was insane, and yet to stop everyone losing face the whole bonkers enterprise just rattles on and on.

My objections to it have bugger all to do with racism or scaremongering and everything to do with a concern that if we follow the current trajectory we'll end up with national democracy so etiolated as to be meaningless, with all the serious stuff decided in horse-trading by unelected suits in undocumented meetings with zero accountability.

Agree with every word Othehuge

Is there actually a european "race" as such?

Also, why do our public servants bang on about trade when a large percentage of the stuff we buy is imported from China, Japan, and other non EU states?

Because we are their trade route into the EU. If we leave, that function becomes obsolete. Also, with the likelihood of the Pound crashing if we do leave, trading with us becomes even less desirable.

Its not a racist view but I think EU withdrawal would be a grave error.