To think that Greece should have some debt forgiveness

[ReallyTired]

I would like Greece to leave the Euro and have help in rebuilding their ecomony. Remaining in the Euro and having high taxes will mean that no one will be able to go on holiday there. I feel that giving more loans to Greece will just make their problems worse. There is simply no way that Greece will ever be able to pay those loans back.

Brutal repatations after the first world war cause untold hardship in Germany. It is thought that the brutally of the reparations on ordinary German people was a factor in the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party by some historians. In 1953 many European countries including Greece, Spain, Italy and Ireland to mention a couple wrote of a sizable chunk of German debt. These countries helped to build the sucessful post war German ecomony. Those countries forgave Germany for far more serious things than not paying loans back.

Germany is one of the countries most resistant for giving Greece a debt haircut. I feel that Chancellor Merkal should be reminded of the parable of the debtor. Its is morally repudgent to have an EU country reduced to third world status. If Greece had a debt haircut then there would be more chance of getting loans paid back. There is no way that Greece can afford the interest payments yet alone pay off any of the debt. The international monetory fund says that the level of debt is totally unsubtainable for the Greek ecomony.

It seems the majority of the arguments on being presented on the thread are based on fallacy and propaganda. In regards to the debt, there seems to be precious little known about the function of the banks, the 'money', the debt itself or the how any of these are created. I know we are all meant to believe what we read in newspapers and see on our television sets, and we form our opinions in the manner we have been taught to form them in school, but the truth of the matter is far different. You can't very well argue about money and debt without first understanding what money is, how it is created, and how it came to be labelled as 'debt' in the first place.

You have cited a blog too, Metacentric. If you prefer The Economist to The New Statesman, you have not proved to me that it is "better" at these things, just that you have a particular ideology or rather, that your view of the issue is coloured by the dominant anti-extreme-left ideology.

I've read it and it does not actually say that people still retire at 50 anywhere - it mentions lots of ages and the main thrust is that the protection of those who were 'grandfathered' in the arduous professions is that

"no hairdressers from 2012 but all those with more than ten years’ experience retained their previous right to retire five years early."

• but the overall minimum age to retire is not 55 anymore , not even for the arduous occupations, and even if so, the list of those has been reduced. Just because some of those were ridiculous, it does not mean that all Greeks had that privilege.

So I stand by my point that there are today no retired 50 year olds. Can you point me to the sentence that states the opposite?

Btw, I've only just googled this because I come from another country that had similar pension provisions which have been systematically removed form about 2003 onwards (unsurprisingly, also in a constant recession since then) and it seemed ridiculous that it would been left running through two rounds of EZ/Troika controlled austerity.

It just seems to me to be a convenient, if false, stick to bash the whole of Greek society - poor-on-poor, as it were.

So I stand by my point that there are today no retired 50 year olds.

There were in December 2014. What has changed in the last six months?

On Wednesday, Greek Labor Minister Yiannis Vroutsis presented data to the parliament, explaining that almost 75% of Greek pensioners are trying to secure their early retirement through legal provisions that allow them to stop working before the age of 61.

“ In the public sector, 7.91% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50 , 23.64% between 51 and 55, and 43.53% between 56 and 61. In IKA, 4.44% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 12.83% retire between 51 and 55, and 58.61% retire between 56 and 61. Meanwhile, in the so-called healthy funds, 91.6% of people retire before the national retirement age limit,” Vroutsis said.

• See more at: greece.greekreporter.com/2014/12/04/75-of-greek-pensioners-enjoy-early-retirement/#sthash.9CgmrwHL.dpuf

Thanks for that. I will forgo asking for the actual source, as "greekreporter.com" is not one I know personally and the article does not provide further references.

If this is correctly reported, I was wrong to say "no pensioners at 50" today. There seem to be still some loopholes which are being closed.

The figure in December 2014 was 7.91% (public sector) +4.44% (IKA - is that private sector?) of people retiring between the ages of 26 and 50. I'm afraid this does not explain on what grounds these people retire (some may - I think - be for ill-health, and that minister says that in the future, which is now, they will be allowed to retire but will have no pension). He also does not say what percentage of their pension they draw (10%, 50%, 80%?).

I do maintain, in general, that even on those figures it does not seem to be justified to say that the Greeks deserve their predicament because "they retire at 50".

But do feel free to criticise the whole of Greek society (including the majority who voted against austerity) treating them as if they all retired at 50...

Why not use the other figure, i.e. that more than 58% retire before 61? Or the figure used by that minister, that 75% retire "early"? This is still a pretty extreme figure for a 'mature' Western economy.

Why use the emotionally charged figure of "retiring at 50"? I wonder.

But do feel free to criticise the whole of Greek society (including the majority who voted against austerity) treating them as if they all retired at 50...

Your claim was that no-one retired at fifty. It turns out not to be the case. That's all.

including the majority who voted against austerity

They can do what they want in their own country. They just need to fund it. Unfortunately, they can't, without external help. And when you need external help, you can't just say "give us the money, we'll decide what to do with it".

Voting for or against austerity is moot. The public are told what they need to be told. If they honestly believed they had a choice, that is a failure in their education and their intelligence. Ignorance of reality does not protect ones family from poverty, nor does it put food on the table. It gives you a nice fuzzy feeling while your head is in the sand, and it let's you mistaking lay claim you were fooled, mislead, or duped. It is however ignorance plain and simple.

Some people in Greece can also get early pension when they have a disability that does not allow them to continue in a type of job but can and do continue to work in other jobs. Or can retire when they work in heavy industry such as cement production. When Greeks run their own store or business they work till they fall. The stats Office in Greece is not reliable and the new Laws will change this regime. Pensions in many occupations other than civil service are not high in Greece so people had to work until late age. Professions such lawyers, docs and engineers have very high pensions but the contributions are the highest. People getting pension at 50 in the past were not just sitting. Many pensioners grandparents did childmind grandchildren a job that should be paid but does not show up in stats. Some retired did a second job such as cooks decorators cleaners janitors and sellers and were in demand because the employer did not have to pay social insurance contributions or higher overtime. Some of this income was undeclared and untaxed. Some pensioners have land and go on to work as farmers or in forestry and fishing seasonally and export their goods. It is hard to come by migrant workers in some regions. Society has different composition in Greece.