To think Cameron ducked his own vote on foxhunting due to fear of losing?

[fortyfide]

Toff Cameron wanted the vote, why did he chicken out of it? They say he thought he would lose. Why worry?

A vast majority of people in Britain loathe the thought groups of hunters in fancy dress like hounding a small animal to its death.

I dont think theplanned vote had anything to do with do with wanting to amend the law. I think it was a ploy to flush out the SNP so that the Tories could say "Look they want to vote on English matters but we can't vote on Scottish matters."

I'd say it has worked and we'll see an "English votes" bill pushed through very soon.

Because the SNP are using this vote for their own political purposes - nothing to do with the subject under consideration.

I agree that now is not the time to spend time or money on this debate, however by calling Cameron a 'toff' you really have set your stall (and your own prejudices?) out on this one...

For those that hate hunting and think that Scotland is a utopia for foxes, it isn't. The whole idea of the bill was to bring the English law into line with the Scottish position. There an unlimited number if dogs can flush out the fox, before it is shot.
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This is political manoevering. And I have no respect for Ms Sturgeon, even if she is a "nice" person. Don't much like DC either, but that's not really the point.

Good post sabadee. Nothing screams "chip on shoulder" like the word 'Toff'.

that's precisely why the vote has been delayed. Because the SNP are choosing a high profile topic like this for their own leverage on EVEL.

I am not one for making rash decisions and I always try to see both sides of an argument.

However, I have been trying to understand why people would want to hunt foxes with a pack of dogs and then have the dogs kills the fox and I have to say I just don't get it. I really don't.

I can't see a single argument that convinces me that fox hunting is necessary. If Mr Cameron were truly trying to establish whether the majority of the British public want any amendments to the hunting act then he needs to hold a referendum in my opinion and let the people decide. It is clear that a huge number of staunch conservative voters are against fox hunting.

WTAF is going on in this world? Do we not have better things to be concentrating our minds upon? There are people on our doorstep starving and suffering, the global economy is on the brink and the Government wants to spend parliamentary time debating about whether people can gallop around on horses to kill a fox.

Just out of interest, does Cameron himself hunt [foxes] ?

"Just out of interest, does Cameron himself hunt [foxes] ?"

He has done, yes.

Good job we all voted in a Tory government so we didn't have the SNP dictating policy eh?

Oh wait........

There was a hilarious farmer on Radio 5 earlier - one of his justifications for hunting was that no-one was contesting the need to kill rats and mice as vermin.

I can't recall the last time I saw a pack of hounds and horses in pursuit of some rats and mice.

Got to give the boy a gold star for trying, though. If you can't take the piss in parliament when you've got a majority, when can you do it?

To the OP, no. He stopped it because it would have been used by the SNP to make a point and defeats the idea of a free vote, though now he has a convenient way to say "oh look how much influence they have" which is handy too. It's all political, nothing to do with toffs or defeat among English members of the Commons.

Dadfromuncle, I read loads of articles pre election about a Conservative & SNP coalition, I think most English voters thought there would be huge influence no matter who got in.

What CaveMum said.
They'll get their way. This is the way they're doing it.

I wouldn't call 56/650 a huge influence. But, Nicola's making a good point about the government's majority being 12. It's not as though any of this can't be predicted. Why have ridiculous free vote topics, anyway? Haven't they got proper work to do, like bringing back our A&E department?

The SNP don't give a shit about the welfare of foxes all they want to do is create mischief. If Nicola Sturgeon cared about the welfare of foxes then she would limit the number of dogs that can be used to flush out a fox in scotland.

Cameron is not trying to repeal the ban on fox hunting, all he is doing is bring the law in England and Wales into line with Scottish law. Foxes are killed for pest control and only two dogs are allowed to be used to flush them out in England and Wales. In scotland pest controllers can use an unlimited number of dogs to flush out foxes.

I think you can flush the fox out with a horn. Or you could just sit by the den with a rifle. If you want to kill foxes you don't need dogs at all.

The problem for Cameron here is not the SNP but his own backbenchers! He has a majority - if all his MPs were prepared to vote in favour of the unspeakable being allowed to pursue the inedible, then the amendment would pass.

But as he is starting to discover, his majority is very slim. And happily the Tory back benches include some MPs with principles.

So, how many manifesto promises have been kicked into the long grass so far? The Human Rights Act appeal. Fox hunting. Anything I've missed?

• Repeal not appeal!

Reasonably relaxed about all of this as I cannot see the horse and hounds pursuing our Mr Fox through the urban jungle to his home on the other side of the tracks. If anyone wants to take up hunting down all the owners of pavement and garden defecating pet dogs and cats they get my vote.

I assume the SNP were just making sure they protected the fox hunting tourism revenue for the landed gentry. Does DC lack access to a decent Scottish estate? They are still the "Tartan Tories" in oor hoose.

Was David Mundell going to abstain then?

From the Nicola Sturgeon point of view, it creates a huge problem for her. She will end up looking unfair if she votes for or against (against is more likely, because most SNP policies are based on stopping people doing things and controlling them).

However, in Scotland, hunting continues as a major part of some very rural areas, in which many people are fed up with the misunderstanding by townies. There are far more foxes killed in Scotland now since they have to be shot and its become a much more organised sport, with quad bikes of shooters following the huntsman and the field ever more detached but enjoying access to countryside they would never otherwise get the chance of. Hunting is thriving in Scotland, albeit there are areas in which it never took off - its a mainly south and east Scottish thing.

So it would be ironic if NS and the SNP voted against similar freedoms being restored in England and Wales, while it continued on their doorstep. Yet if they meddle with it further in Scotland, they risk losing even more rural support, which is crucial for any independence hopes they still harbour.

Aside from that, NS as First Minister of Scotland really ought to be a lot more vocal and active on the appalling case of a young couple dyeing at the side of the road after her creation, PoliceScotland, didn't process calls from members of the public of a car down a motorway slip road embankment, and in sorting out the fraudulent mess that is City of Edinburgh Council. If the SNP really are more interested in class warfare and fox hunting in England and Wales, then whats the point of them?

Of course this issue is one which the Tories are schizophrenic over (the other being the EU).

It's worth bearing in mind some - in fact quite a few, thanks to Labour - Tory MPs are as far from the rolling fields of old England as it's possible to be. And their city-dwelling voters are not only ambivalent about foxhunting, but actively against it.

If I were an urban Tory MP with a majority outnumbering foxes in my constituency, I might not be so quick to vote in favour.

Things look rocky for Cameron (maj: 12), if his majority isn't big enough 2 months into government. Which, to be fair, was exactly what was forewarned back in May, when the Major years (maj: 21) were recalled.

If the car crash fiasco really was down to telephone call routing for Police Scotland, then Sturgeon is doing well with her softly softly response so far. She can't go in all guns blazing, because she can't turn the policy back in mid conversion. If it was due to something else, hopefully the inquiry will tell us that.

Must've missed us all voting in a Tory govt...

Anyway, I don't know whether Cameron especially cares about this issue, but don't think it would be my top priority in his shoes. Twelve is not much of a majority and it's hugely divisive. OTOH, the majority is only likely to shrink over the next five years, as sitting parties tend to do poorly in by-elections. If he genuinely does want repeal, maybe now's the best shot.

I think it's worth pointing out that the current Scottish hunting law will be under review with a view to tightening this (if not already). And I live in rural East Scotland, there's certainly no rampant foxhunting here TheChandler I'd still rather they were shot than torn to shreds by a pack of dogs.
Also, and perhaps unbelievably, we can actually think about more than one issue at once.

Must've missed us all voting in a Tory govt...

Sorry - I was trying to be mildly ironic :)