to think Brian May could be anti foxhunting without......

[fortyfide]

telling an hunting geezer "you are all f+cking liars" (Newsnight TV thurs)
I am anti foxhunting too and Cameron should not try to sneak it back

Debate in Parliament on Tuesday

[Lurkedforever1]

I'm not actually defending hunting, but I'm in favour of it over the barbaric legal ways of culling, or the illegal but ignored ways like snares. And I don't like the hypocrisy and general lack of knowledge people have about it.
Problem with culling foxes is they are way too clever and quick and finely tuned for what many people think is a humane alternative to work. Lamping works on rabbits because they don't respond like foxes. It might work on some mangy scavenger town foxes I suppose but not on a country fox

[dani002]

They manage to lamp foxes in the outback in Australia just fine.

[Lurkedforever1]

I know nothing about fox control in Australia so I wouldn't like to comment, but if it can be proven to work as an instant death here then I wouldn't be against it. But my general experience of other forms of fox control in the English country side is that finding one that's died very slowly, or getting a good marksman in to finish what someone good on a target range started isn't uncommon.

[Backforthis]

Do you know why there are foxes in Australia? They were deliberately introduced so there could be fox hunting. Seriously. Now, remind me that it's just a form of population control.

[maddening]

Well i am vegetarian and apparently therefore can legitimately say that fox hunting should stay banned - unless parallels can be drawn to cheap carrots?

[dani002]

You really are determind to chase the foxes arent ya!

Fox breeding by hunters goes on in this country aswell. They got to have a stock of foxes to chase now haven't they.

[emilywrites]

I would appreciate if someone who is involved in hunting could answer a few questions. I grew up in America with horses, and I really want to understand the apparent difference between the hunt there and here, but when I tried to discuss this with some British people who had hinted that they hunt, they became enraged and huffed off. But I still want to know! So, two questions:

1. In the US, we had "drag hunts" that did not involve foxes at all: the hounds chased a scent trail. It was so much fun! It didn't matter that there was no real fox (and I wouldn't have wanted to see one killed). Do you not do drag hunts in UK? Wouldn't that solve the problem?
   

1. Also, I've been told that in the UK, a fox who goes to earth is DUG OUT?! Is this true? It seems cowardly and unsportsmanlike. The American tradition is to let a fox go/call off hounds when the fox goes to earth. This results in the healthiest foxes surviving, and the old and sick making up the majority of casualties. I don't understand why the British hunts couldn't compromise a little bit adopt the rule of letting a gone-to-earth fox go? Wouldn't that appease more people?

[Lurkedforever1]

Actually if that's aimed at me dani no. like I said I'm just not into all the bollocks surrounding it. That's like me saying anyone against it is just taking that line because they emulate the illegal behavior of anti groups and are justifying their desire to shout abuse at kids on ponies and attack horses, hounds and hunters cos they must be townie chavs. But I'm not either hysterical or given to forming ridiculous opinions. Do you know why we introduced myxy? Cos some bright spark got busy killing too many foxes without any form of natural selection.

[dani002]

They do drag hunts at the moment within the law. It doesn't seem to fullfill their need to actually chase an animal though.

They have terrier teams who dig out foxes and their cubs and throw them to the hounds.

I agree with you lurkedforever, people shouting abuse at children following hunts is wrong but i don't think following hunts is any place for a child anyway. The whole smearing fox blood on the child's face on their first kill is just weird.

[Lurkedforever1]

emily
1 yes. Theres been draghunting in the UK even pre ban. Post ban hunts that previously hunted live quarry generally do trail hunts, which unlike drag hunts are meant to be closer to the pace of a real hunt. Issue with trail hunting from a riding point of view is that some land owners only want the hunt on their land if they're getting something in exchange, i.e fox control, which partly explains point 2.

1. Depends on what's been agreed with the farm owner. The hunts I was familiar with pre ban I only really heard of it happening when an injured/ old etc one went to earth ( not its own just a bolt hole) and the only time I ever witnessed it was terriers flushing one out. And away from actual hunt days may be provided as a service like fallen stock etc. Although I was never a subscriber or regular follower so someone more experienced might explain better or differently.

[Lurkedforever1]

Dani, if you want to form persuasive and logical arguments against hunting I suggest you actually get facts on the subject first, I usually find its the most constructive method. ( hint- a fact is something that is known and proven to be true, which isn't usually the same as what you read in bias media or your friend told you or what some moron anti wrote on Facebook)

[dani002]

Meow. I hit a nerve obviously.

[Lurkedforever1]

Not at all. I'm neither for nor against hunting, but I can argue either side because I know the actual facts about it. And in discussions like this I always side with pro hunters.

[FyreFly]

In the hunting communities I know, digging out the fox when it's gone to earth is Not Done. At all. For them, it's an extremely strict line. It divides some in the hunting community, but the most prevailing concensus is that it shouldn't happen. That does not, of course, stop certain groups doing so. It depends on the landowner and the hunt. It is not a practice I would have a hand in, whether shooting or hunting. I don't believe it is technically illegal under the current law as long as its done without dogs.Some liken it to ratting, flushing the nests out.

Drag hunting is often practiced (one of my mates has been the drag on more than one occasion ), however it is not unheard of for hounds to pick up a more interesting 'real' scent and go after that; drag hunting is not a completely infallible method.

[BertrandRussell]

If you want an analysis of class structure then the internal workings of a hunt are an excellent place to start........

[Jasonandyawegunorts]

You sound lovely Jason. However, I'm not surprised, all most people care about when it comes to food is how cheap it is.

Was that sarcasm?
I don't buy meat, So i'm not one of these cheap meat buying people, However I would much rather animals which have been raised in terrible conditions not live longer than they have to, rather than killing free range ones.

[Sickoffrozen]

Any killing of animals for fun is grim. The royals are just as bad.

[BertrandRussell]

Interesting that it appears to be OK for Prince Philip to swear at people..there's a tread going on about what a wonderful refreshing character he is.......

[TheRavenChides]

I am always perplexed when people use the argument "fox hunting should be allowed because...battery farming"

Since when does one form of cruelty justify another? Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. Would it be acceptable for someone to justify child abuse by saying genocide happens? Ridiculous argument used by people who can't come up with a reasonable one.

(There isn't a reasonable argument by the way, taking pleasure in animal cruelty is wrong, whichever way you look at it)

[Lurkedforever1]

I've never met even very pro hunt people that state it should be allowed because battery farming is. The opinion is that it's hypocritical to be a consumer of cruelly produced food ( which again is only eaten for pleasure) and yet get on your moral high horse about hunting that is far less cruel. And the factory farming is also used to point out that animal cruelty wise there are far bigger concerns the time, money and effort put into the ban and upholding it could have been put into

[NoStannisNo]

Of course this is about class - I don't see Cameron falling over himself to make pitbull fighting legal.

[NoStannisNo]

But seriously, its been banned for a few years now. What are the actual concrete reasons for wanting to bring it back? Can these people really not live without doing this for a hobby? I honestly don't get it.

[sashh]

I'm struggling to understand what battery farmed chickens have to do with the fox hunting argument?

The argument goes

Foxes kill chickens.

If chickens are battery farmed then foxes can't get at them.

Poor chickens let them out to be killed by foxes and that give us an excuse to kill them (the foxes).

More than one hunt has been involved with keeping foxes captive before the hunt, which I think shows that this has nothing to do with keeping the fox population down and a lot to do with people enjoying themselves.

[Lurkedforever1]

And the members of which hunt told you that *sashh?
Funny that such a high number of vegan/ home produced dairy and meat only posters have all congregated on this thread to comment on how people shouldn't be committing acts of animal cruelty for pleasure.

[NoStannisNo]

If being a meat eater (and I am assuming that David Cameron is not vegan here) means that you automatically have to give the green light to all forms of animal cruelty, they why don't they legalise dog fighting, bear baiting, and all the other horrible blood sports? Why is foxhunting singled out as 'ok'?