To ask my brother to change his restaurant design 3 weeks from opening

[msmacd]

Hi there, require the input of the mumsnet jury on this one. My brother is opening a cafe/restaurant/bar. It has cost a huge amount to construct and fit-out. My mother's money (she is 70) is also riding on it's success as she is the primary investor, and has mortgaged her home. I took a sabbatical to come back to my country of origin for 4 months to help him in the critical weeks. I have also invested in it.

My brother says his intention is to target the 30-50yrs demographic in particular. He now has 700 Facebook 'likes' for his restaurant Facebook page, and tellingly the majority are woman. There is a fairly trendy man tavern/sports bar close by, so he (claims) he is trying to appeal to the women (who would then bring their partners/ families). As it is in a suburban area, he also envisages getting business from the mothers after school drop off etc, as he will be open from 7:30 and acting as a cafe with cake, coffee, breakfast etc in the mornings.

The architects created it with a bit of an industrial chic vibe, with concrete floors (which i appreciate are on trend at the moment). However, there will be some banquets and some soft/more casual seating in the cafe area at the front, as well as a more formal dining area towards the back. It also has a small garden. A large bar is in the centre of the venue, as the central/focal point.

Yesterday i saw the bar go up. I have attached a photo. That is the finished product/look. The panels are fibreglass made to look like concrete. I took the photo just after they had installed part of the front, but it spans the entire bar and curves around into the cafe area (not in photo).

I'm not a fan (to put it lightly). However, it will cause a massive uproar if I ask him to make changes. His restaurant manager (who he has been working closely with to set it up) already thinks i'm an interfering cow (ha!). It is 3 weeks from opening to the public.

Given my brother is trying to appeal primarily to women (allegedly) and attract families. i must ask... what do you think? Am i being unreasonable?

It looks lovely. Please for the love of god take the advice of those who have experience in the industry - we do actually know what we are doing. If you become too interfering you will lose your experienced management and struggle to re-recruit (I have seen it happen far too often).

Cushions etc are fine in higher end environments. During the day the white will look fresh then in the evening set it with mood lighting to soften it - I suggest getting a pre-set system in place.

Please don't replace the fibre glass with leather panels - they will get scuffed by heels and look shit within a few weeks. Leave the bar as is it looks great.

All your comments are making me cringe as I'm envisaging a car crash waiting to happen. Sorry to be blunt but I have seen so many bars and restaurants opened up by families that go bust because of too many in puts and not a clear enough business plan etc. All this should have been decided months ago - not 3 weeks before opening.

thanks Raawwhh. In fairness i probably need a bit of a slap.

Decisions were obviously made earlier, but the change in style (largely directed by the restaurant manager who came onboard 3 months ago) was not shared with my mother or I. So it has just come as a bit of a shock. I'm sure he deliberately didn't tell us, as he expected this reaction. I desperately hope he (and his manager) are right. I guess to be honest it's just not somewhere i would spend alot of time in, and i'm the target demographic. I'm reassured by all the posters who say they like it, or don't dislike it, or would care more about the food/service. I'm quite happy in this instance to be told i'm wrong!

skoda A fluffy is a demi-tasse filled with foamed milk, usually served with a chocolate fish or marshmallow and aimed at children. You might call it a babycino?

Skoda fluffies are what I think in the UK are called "babycchino" type drinks. Milk warmed up and frothed with steam like you would for a cappuccino, but without the espresso shot. Typically with chocolate sprinkled on top and served with chocolate fish or marshmallows.

While I appreciate everyone here saying "kiddification" would put them off, in reality in NZ - at least the city where I live - every bar or cafe is child friendly. They all have a toy basket, they all cater to children (although the children's menu isn't just nuggets and chips, it's normally child friendly versions of the adult menu plus a "platter" - fairy bread, fruit, cheese slices, raisins, ham, chocolate fish). The 30-50 demographic will include plenty of people with young babies and toddlers as well as older children, especially given the number of 40+ year olds having babies.

But hey, what does my opinion count for. I only live here and am bang in the middle of supposed target demographic.

msmacd I love rustic and industrial but I don't like it at all. I hate the look and feel of concrete (reminds me of 1970s council estates) and the general look of the bar reminds me of a chip shop/fast food outlet/clinic reception. The wood doesn't go with the fake concrete panels, and the white tiles just seem wrong with it too. I think it looks unfinished, but in a bad way.

However, I choose restaurants based on the quality of the food and service and am not hugely influenced by the decor, so I wouldn't avoid a place like this necessarily.

I like:

concrete floor
tiles
lighting
ceiling area

I don't like:

wooden edge on the bar - I think it might be ok without the faux panels

concrete effect front panels - they do look a bit green. They may look better in rl, but I hate them in the picture

I imagine that once the other furnishings are in place it will look warmer and more welcoming.

Don't have a creche area. Some clean high chairs,colouring sheets, crayons and child friendly staff are all you need to attract most parents. If you have a children's play area you will end up with only children and their mums and others will avoid it like the plague.

Thanks for the fluffies explanation!

Hic, do you work for NZ tourism? You're making me want to visit with all this talk of fairy bread and lovely caffs!

I'm not a fan but I don't think it's awful and it's not finished so it's hard to tell what it would be like with the proper lighting etc. I work in a large hospital and it's not unlike the non public areas (back of theatres, mortuary etc) which doesn't scream 'fine dining' to me. I prefer the pics Skoda linked. It's got a bit of colour and comfort but still looks modern.

I would run a mile from anywhere with a proper 'play area'. There are enough soft play places to go if you want to sit for two hours with a cup of tea and people very quickly get through the toddler stage and don't want to go anywhere kiddified. I do like a bit of colouring in and highchairs. The menu is difficult for children if you don't want adults buying it in leiu of a 'proper' meal but if you want the after school drop off crowd then a glass of milk + a cookie for Xp deal or the juice + pita/cucumber/grapes/cheese thing for £X would attract me much more than somewhere where it cost £3 for a drink for a toddler.

Love those bars photos that Skoda linked to. Very warm, welcoming, but modern too. They would definitely draw me in.

I'm now rethinking my view on the white tiles, but as long as the rest of the room has some warmth it could be fine. It's hard to judge from a half finished room.

Hi again. A great way to absorb noise is canvas as in paintings. It's also a great way to add colour.

If your target group is 30-50 you need an area that accommodates kids IMO. It's doesn't need to be something permanent nor does it need to be front and center. I come from a family of restaurant owners and my gran was the chippy queen with over 50 units. She swore by going into every local restaurant during the day for all meal times so she knew her competition. She copied the restaurant she saw as being the most successful at generating money in that immediate area. She then refreshed her locations every 7 years often completly gutting the unit.

Finally I forgot to put in my earlier posts that the lights above the bar are not even. They either need to be poker straight or purposefully at different lengths. I would consider adding a light shade just for ease of cleaning and replacing light bulbs. Afraid to say the lights would drive me batty.

Ok so the thing is - here there aren't many (if any) soft play places. And people without children do go to cafes which are also child friendly - if the cafes only catered to one section of the population they'd rapidly go under. There isn't the population in NZ to be so specialised - you're talking about a country with 4million total (1mill in Auckland, 1mill in total on South Island as a whole, 2 million spread around the rest of North Island or overseas). So every cafe is child friendly by day and early evening, to get the families in, as well as turning more adult later in the evening.

I live in a large tourist spot - population is 150,000 max including rural areas (radius of 150kms or so). If you don't cater to everyone you lose out to those that do. It's a completely different scale to the UK. Auckland is probably the closest (and I suspect has more soft play areas) - Christchurch had 3 when I was there a while back and one of them has definitely gone since the quakes.

Skoda no, I don't work for NZ tourism, I just love living here. Early 40s, two young kids, great lifestyle and we do eat out a lot!

Bars for kids.

When did this start?!

Frankie- in New Zealand, as Hic has pointed out it's often family friendly by day, bar/fine dining by night. I know a bowling alley which goes round at six pm and boots out under 18s! (Or at least it did when I lived there). Sometimes children's birthday parties were being rushed out the door around 5.45 .

Of course there are specialty cafes too but it's very common to have a transformation between afternoon tea and evening service!

This would be perfect in Bristol. We have loads of places like this that are really popular with exactly the type of customer he's aiming at.

Aiming at 30 - 50 year olds is good, however I would think that older people would prefer not to have children playing while they are trying to enjoy a drink, meal, conversation/meeting and have actually walked out of places where children have been screaming (not the only ones to leave because of it).

To me surroundings are less important than atmosphere and cleanliness, and too much noise, over-loud music, shouting (often over the music) which then leads to more shouting to be heard over the noise is something I would avoid.

i am lauging at the oddness of loads of English women telling a bar in New Zealand if they would go to it

Are you also laughing at the oddness of a bar in New Zealand asking predominately UK women what they think?

I am laughing at the oddness of someone thinking we are all English.

I bet over 50 percent are

I like the idea of two children's menus - one could be smaller portions of the adult menu, and the other could be raisins / sandwiches / breadsticks for toddlers. That way, it's easier to discourage people from bringing their own food

Hot chocolate, crayons, colouring books, lollipops at end of children's meal is enough to make families feel welcome.

I bet over 50 percent are

I bet by the time you add up the Scottish, Welsh, Irish and overseas contingents they aren't.

What do you mean Draconis?

Scotland has a slightly larger population than NZ. I can assure you that we have a range of cafés, restaurants and soft play places catering to range of customer groups. It isn't like you could squeeze 4million people to the church hall for coffee and scones served off a pasting table.

I honestly think you're over-thinking it. Much more important than decor, for his target audience, is great service, a family-friendly atmosphere, baby-changing facilities, room for buggies, plenty of highchairs and a really good kids menu (pref one that includes some vegetables...seriously, hospitality industry: some kids eat veg!!).

I'd also make sure he's thought about special offers for the prime time he wants to draw them in (ie. after school drop-off etc), as well as things like free wifi, kids crayons/games etc and ideally a nice aafe outdoor area for them to play. In the evening, a lot can be done with lighting etc to make it look much more grown-up and sophisticated. I honestly think all that is more important than the decor! I think you're a good sister/daughter to want to help though :)

Thanks all, Yes i knew at the time i initially posted that most of the UK would be sleeping. But my experience lurking on mumsnet is that there are people from all over the world using it. As i said earlier, as someone who lives in the UK and returns to NZ regularly, i don't see much difference in terms of city bar/restaurant stylings. If anything, NZ is often ahead of the trends. There are some seriously interesting places around, design wise. In terms of food and service, NZ tends to be streets ahead. Some of the questions i've been asking (to women/mothers), to me seem fairly universal in terms of most western countries & cultures.

Thanks Hic and Isitstupid for explaining the subtle differences in NZ cafes/restaurants (and fluffys ). As you explained, there is a pressure to try appeal to all markets and certainly not be exclusionary to certain groups. Especially where my brother's business is located, it is not city centre, so even more reason to try appeal to most of the locals. However, as many of you have been highlighting, there is a fine line between trying to be open/appealing to all and trying to be too many things to all people (e.g. the line that gets crossed with family friendliness, where you may start to alienate the adults).

Laquila thanks for your comments. Fortunately the majority of opinions have been along those lines. i.e. "I do/don't like the style, but food/service/atmosphere is more important anyway". The chef is making the child's menu quite healthy, and including some smaller portion versions/adaptations of the adult food. In reality, the executive chef, restaurant manager and my brother are doing a fantastic job. I was only worried about the potentially cold (and slightly unusual) industrial styling and whether that might put people off. The competing trendy mancave in the area is very dark/warm. Probably the other extreme, but it does make it cosy.

Yes i am helping. Admin, manual labour, painting, interior designer (currently looking at light fittings) website design, general dogsbody. Also 2nd evening manager the first week. I do it all! I guess because my brother asked me (early last year) if i would come back and help for a couple of months, i expected things to be a bit more collaborative than is the case. I work for a large global company in London, in a fairly senior professional capacity, so it wasn't a minor request to ask me to take a significant amount of time off to help.

Hicdraconis i'd also be living here if i could convince my husband. He's not willing yet to give up the big city London life .