friend's violent sons?

[brightreddress]

Hello,
Where we live there is a little community of toddlers who all go to the playground regularly and the older ones are all in the local play school - it is a tight knit group.
Two brothers in the group (ages 2 and 4) have been getting more and more violent recently and attack my child and others in the playground. This isn't your usual pushing or hitting thoughtlessly with a stick but sustained attempts to try and injure other children. I.e. waiting until a little child is on top of the slide and then trying to kick them over the edge, or waiting until a child is climbing up something and trying to push them back down from the top. I have also seen them go straight for children's eyes with sticks. All really serious stuff and there have been a few incidents where kids have been really hurt.
They have lashed out at my DC a few times and most recently kicked her and really hurt her, again making her fall off something in the playground. She was very upset, not understanding why someone would do such a thing. It made me very sad, and angry.
Every time a child goes near them they try to really hurt him or her.
I have talked to my DD and told her not to go near these boys but they are at a lot of things we go to and always in the park. They do not mind their own business but rather wait in a place they know they might have a chance of injuring someone. Their mum makes them apologise but does not hover enough to prevent them doing it. There is something wrong with them they are not normal fighty toddlers. They are actually frightening and always look pleased when they have severely hurt another kid.
I am really angry about it and want to completely avoid them. How best to do this? Does anyone have any experience of it?

If you've noticed the behaviour of a 2 and 4 year old is very weird and not normal, maybe you should be reporting it.

Unless of course you're exaggerating a bit. Some of your comments...like them purposefully lying in wait for children at their most vulnerable moment to hurt them/push them off something sounds a bit unrealistic tbh. 2 year olds aren't generally that forward thinking.

I'm not exaggerating. They cast about for kids to bully/injure.

We've had this too with a friend's child. It does make you angry. Even though I was sorry for their child – there may have been some SN (not diagnosed) or possibly some reason why they were disturbed – I felt angry when my children got hurt, I do think that's natural. The parents were ineffectual and I just ended up shadowing the child closely and intervening as soon as any violence started. "I'll have that stick thanks." "I can see you trying to twist DD's arm, stop that now" etc. Parents just looked the other way.

(I am an intervener though! In those toddler areas at soft play I'm right in there with "Are you under 4 hmmm? Off to the big kids area then please!" to hulking 9yos. I agree with hairylegs that it is OK for other adults to set boundaries if the parents won't.)

These boys will start at school soon enough (unless HE) and if they behave like this there, it will be addressed, they will look at SN possibilities and support them hopefully, which might help.

I do believe you OP. I believe you because I witnessed similar many times in the park with a certain child/classmate of my son. He was 5 but we'd known him since he was 3 and his behaviour had always been as you describe. His mum was lovely but completely ineffectual. Last I heard was around five years ago he was in youth detention for burning down the village hall.
I know it's not a popular view on MN but it is quite possible for the odd child to be rotten even at a young age.

Jade, unrelated to my previous post which is about a friend's (older) child, in the playground recently we met a girl like this – she was very little, no more than 3, but whatever my DD went to play on, this girl just followed her and tried to push her off. She also had a mum who didn't like to upset her by telling her not to do it or removing her. I wondered if at that age it's just attention-seeking and trying to get the parent to get involved.

If you are in a small community, you presumably share a Health Visitor.
Maybe talk to her about ways of keeping your child safe, while letting her know how concerned you are about the boys and their violence. It might be something she is already aware of and can refer the family for some extra support.

If it's not normal then I'd be really suspicious about something going on at home. I would talk to the mother, obviously. But also raise concerns about the kids themselves. Can you share concerns with someone else who knows the family or who could even talk to the children? And please try to keep an eye on them - for bruises etc. this sort of thing doesn't come out of nowhere.

If it's not normal then I'd be really suspicious about something going on at home

The only little thug around when my dd was small had a macho daddy who encouraged this kind of behaviour. But it is certainly a possible sign of thems suffering abuse at home. Domestic violence happens in all levels of society as does child abuse, just the middle classes do not have adjoining walls where the neighbours can hear what is happening.

You are saying this is a "middle class" and "folksy" family and these very young children are engaging in very disturbed behaviour. In all honesty, I would just report it and let the authorities deal with it. I wouldn't be angry with the children, though I appreciate you say you're not and if the mother was very upset with what happened and just didn't see it, I'm not sure what more you can do at this point. You keep your own child safe, obviously, but if you are not exaggerating this is quite a serious red flag, regardless of what you imagine their home life might be like. My father lived in a house with the most unimaginable violence and sexual abuse. When my grandfather died, there were several prominent members of the government at his funeral as he was very highly respected in the community. Don't fool yourself that you can tell. I like the suggestion to tell the HV, if you share one.