To think that condemming the grammar school system , because it cannot give 100% of pupils a brilliant education is wrong.

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I was watching the 'Secret life of the Grammar School' on BBC four last night and it occurred to me that the majority were successful because of a grammar school education. The debate on grammar schools is centred around the 75% or so who don't pass. The ideology expressed from many, is that if 100% of children can't get a highly academic education either though ability or resources than no one should have the chance. This is surely wrong and ultimately does not do the less academic any favours yet it significantly reduces the chances for bright children, who may need a structured and highly 'disciplined' environment to achieve.

I know many people on this site will disagree with this post and will cite the excellent 'comprehensives' their children attend. The truth is the best comprehensive schools are 'covert' grammar schools operating a more 'acceptable' form of selection .

The grammar school system needs to be applauded for its contribution to the United kingdom from politics , commerce to science and engineering . There is no part of life in the UK that has not been influenced or improved by grammar school educated people.

However, if you read the constant 'diatribes' of people on the left you would believe that grammar schools are worse than 'public schools' in their effect on society. Grammar schools have provided the backbone to society for over 70 years. I believe that it is morally wrong to prevent academic children from all sectors of society a 'grammar ' education just on the basis of it not being available to all.

The comps have the most able in them!! Those most able are doing just as well as those in the grammar school- and they are challenged.
Do people seriously think that the over 90% of children who don't have access to grammar schools or private schools are in the stereotypical ones seen on TV? There seems to be the view that a few poor middle class bright children are having to cope in some sort of educational jungle where they are frightened of being bullied if they are clever and have teachers who are so busy doing crowd control that they can't teach!

The reality is that the top sets are large and the 'cool kids' are the ones who are seen to succeed- that every school meeting earnest parents will be asking searching questions about Oxbridge and top universities and the teachers do actually know the answer, having been sending a steady stream for years! They will be complaining to the school if their children are not stretched.

It isn't just the top sets. Why should my non academic son not have just as good an environment?He is well behaved with a great work ethic. As a parent Iwasn't going to put up with him being in disruptive lessons. On the odd occasions I rang the school and they sorted it. I get the impression that some of you think that comprehensives are ruled by feral pupils who are allowed to do what they like!

I just looked up the stats for my school, if you look at the pupils with high prior attainment (level 5s at KS2), 96% of them attained 5 A*-C at GCSE inc maths and English. This is better than some of the Kent grammars I've looked at.

Meh that wasn't what was reported recently.

Wasn't it widely reported that bright kids aren't being stretched enough and don't do as well as those in grammars.

Clearly not a problem in my school.

In fact if you had a bright kid, you'd be better sending them to my comp than to some grammars.

At our local secondary modern 90% of the high attainers got 5A*-C with Eng and Maths. Admittedly, there were only 10 of them..........

Perhaps it might be a good idea to see the Tatler's guide to secondary schools here and note how many are state schools and comprehensives.
I have no idea where you saw that Lily or how you can possibly put all comprehensives under one umbrella to say that if they are not stretched in Hull they are not stretched in Winchester!

The A* to C range is huge though. A student achieving level 5s at key stage 2 is making very little progress if they achieve 5 C grades,

Even when I was in a sec mod my position at the top of the A stream was the best place to be. Success was applauded- in any field, including academic. I didn't have to hide it.

Tatler

It was BBC,broadsheets etc. It was commented on in threads on here too.

And yet some in grammars, Philoslothy, don't even manage that. And they're supposed to be the cream of the crop.

I totally agree noble, I was just making the point that the measure is too broad to be helpful.

Our local grammar schools have very dissapointing A*-C rates.

Top set of my comprehensive was a great place to be I'm sure, with the range between working for a c and likely to breeze a so nobody felt catered for. I had a fab time socially and many amusing memories. With rare exceptions though I might as well have not been there educationally and with hindsight I'm sure both the teachers and other pupils would have done better. Any benefit to having the other a kids in the class with those working for c's was no doubt negated by my disruptive behavior. And I know not all comprehensives are like that but plenty still are, and in all the years since I left the one I attended certainly hasn't from all I can gather

Mehitbab. You do know they have a "Secondary modern" school on their list !

Are they taking the piss. The Coombe federation are technically two "modern schools".

Loved all the London( Greycoats), Surrey and Home Counties schools on that list.Bet your average PP kid has a cat in yells chance of attending any of them.

It's madness to say that all grammars "are the cream of the crop". Some grammars in Kent are fairly crap, some are average, a lot are very good and a few are outstandingly awesome.

Like comprehensives.

The Tatler list is posh frippery. It's just a list of naice state schools, they don't seem to have paid much attention to the standard measures that most broadsheet league tables do. But then, hey, it's Tatler.

As regards the question of whether teachers would prefer to teach in a grammar, I think it would be very dependent on the nature of the teacher. I would hazard, that for some, there's very little challenge in teaching children who are already very able academically and they would prefer the satisfaction of working with pupils who need much more input.

Though alternatively, you might get teachers who prefer to teach fast and quick to pupils who don't require much input.

If I was teaching I think I would consider a grammar to perhaps be a more disciplined environment, but probably slightly stuffier in its atmosphere.

"Don't the best teachers usually opt for the Grammar school given the choice? If you want a great career path working for Tiffins etc looks good on the CV. Isn't that the elephant in the room? This has certainly been my experience, not always, but in general."

Just thinking of the CV of the best teacher I have ever met. The kind who can teach a bottom, or top, set of any school, even in subjects that are very far from their specialism (has been observed by OFSTED teaching everything from A Level Physics to Year 10 Childcare) and always be graded outstanding. The sort every child remembers into adulthood....

Oxbridge educated, some time in a non education job, rapid rise through a range of schools including a rough 6th form college and a well-regarded CofE comp. Head by 40, of the worst school (statistically) in that county. Adds 10% to GCSE pass rate in 1st year, another 10% the second.

No grammar or selective schools anywhere on the CV. When needed to change jobs recently, the phone rang off the hook.

I didn't say that grammars were the cream of the crop, I meant that the kids in them were supposed to be. If you can't get into them without passing a test supposed to pick out the academically most able, then what the hell are they doing not getting pretty much everyone their 5 A*-C?

But good to see someone saying that there are crap grammar schools. Plenty on this thread seem to rate grammar schools above everything else.

Lurked I would have thought that very few top sets had students with a a grade targets in. I am not teaching at the moment but I am sure that most of my top sets were mostly A/A* targets if not exclusively so. That is in a school that loss children to the grammar. Set 2 is mainly made up of B grade targets with the odd C. Set 3 would be C/D borderline.

OK
Try the university entrance here Durham
Don't tell me that a few pupils are going to make it against the odds of disrupted classes and teachers who can't stretch the able!

You may laugh at my Tatlers link but it would have been unheard of a few years ago that they would mention state schools- and certainly no chance of a comprehensive.

I do think that different teachers have different specialisms and preferences, in general. It takes someone truly outstanding to teach all abilities exceptionally well. Some 'subject specialists with relatively poor pedagogical skills' teach the 'compliant able' [often clustered in a grammar] very well, but would struggle when asked to teach different ability groups in a comprehensive. Others, with excellent pedagogical skills and behaviour management, and a real gift for understanding why someone might not understand something, might use their skills to the full in a lower ability set.

As a personal example, I have unusually high academic qualifications for a primary school teacher (Oxbridge PhD in a science subject), yet my best teaching is probably in bottom set maths.

I thought the Comprehensive school in Hull, where my younger sister teaches would have been on that list ! .

It is no surprise that Tatler choose the most trendy and then threw in a few pretend Comprehensives. Dame Alice a Comprehensive ?.

The schools shown on that list are far more selective, than most grammar schools . Borlase grammar which is near me is a "private" school with its own Equestrian team . Maybe because it is not fee paying, means the parents can afford Horses.

However, a lot of "EX" wealthy families have lost a lot of money over the last ten years hence the drastic step of a Tatler "COMP" school guide.

Winchester King's School Go onto one of the top sixth form colleges for university entrance.