Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that condemming the grammar school system , because it cannot give 100% of pupils a brilliant education is wrong.

999 replies

sunshield · 02/07/2015 10:54

I was watching the 'Secret life of the Grammar School' on BBC four last night and it occurred to me that the majority were successful because of a grammar school education. The debate on grammar schools is centred around the 75% or so who don't pass. The ideology expressed from many, is that if 100% of children can't get a highly academic education either though ability or resources than no one should have the chance. This is surely wrong and ultimately does not do the less academic any favours yet it significantly reduces the chances for bright children, who may need a structured and highly 'disciplined' environment to achieve.

I know many people on this site will disagree with this post and will cite the excellent 'comprehensives' their children attend. The truth is the best comprehensive schools are 'covert' grammar schools operating a more 'acceptable' form of selection .

The grammar school system needs to be applauded for its contribution to the United kingdom from politics , commerce to science and engineering . There is no part of life in the UK that has not been influenced or improved by grammar school educated people.

However, if you read the constant 'diatribes' of people on the left you would believe that grammar schools are worse than 'public schools' in their effect on society. Grammar schools have provided the backbone to society for over 70 years. I believe that it is morally wrong to prevent academic children from all sectors of society a 'grammar ' education just on the basis of it not being available to all.

OP posts:
Mehitabel6 · 05/07/2015 19:18

If I was 19yrs today I definitely wouldn't go to university- a waste of money!

Philoslothy · 05/07/2015 19:26

I totally agree Gemauve that I should have gone to university but to a working class kid who does not know anybody who has been to university, to be honest within my own family I knew very few people that worked , it would seem stupid to spend 30k plus on a degree. I went to university because it was free. I genuinely did not expect to get a job but I had nothing to lose - so I went. Even if I went to university today ( as I hope many of my children will - one is about to go) I would have chosen a cheaper one and I suspect that my choice of university opened doors that otherwise would have been shut for me.

University is a sound investment if you think you are clever enough to get good grades and you think you have the ability to get a job at the other end. I went assuming that I would fail ( I am still amazed that I didn't!) and doubting that anybody would employ me ( I am still amazed when somebody offers me a job) and therefore it was not worth spending money on.

Mehitabel6 · 05/07/2015 19:27

I would go to university if I wanted to be a doctor, vet etc but if I was just doing a degree in my best subject I would seek other ways to start a career.

Philoslothy · 05/07/2015 19:31

For me university was the final stage in escaping my past and so it was very imprtant to me. I did quite well at school but my family were always waiting for me with their dodgy mates waiting to drag me down. Going to university meant that I could move away and a full grant meant that I could do so with no financial input from my family. I basically told them that I was off and I would send money home when I could. They were happy that there was one less mouth to feed, even happier that I might be able to send money home and so they let me go.

For my eldest son who has had quite a traumatic time for different reasons university is very important because I hope that he will finally meet people like him and at last make a friend who gets him. I don't care if he never gets a job, never passes an exam, if he can just have a few moments where he does not feel odd and isolated it will be worth it.

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 19:34

Er, Philo, it's essentially a one-way bet today: if you don't do well out of it, you don't repay, and your loan is converted into a grant. It's precisely because people don't understand that which is leading to people who should go to university not doing so, but let's not perpetuate the misunderstanding.

it would seem stupid to spend 30k plus on a degree

Noone "spends" 30k plus on a degree. They incur debt, which they may or may not pay, depending on what their ultimate income is.

I would have chosen a cheaper one

For practical purposes, there are no "cheaper" universities, as all charge the same fees (OU excluded). For students from poorer backgrounds, smoother universities have more bursaries.

Philoslothy · 05/07/2015 19:40

Again Gemauve you are right but that is not how I would have seen it.

Molio · 05/07/2015 20:27

Why is there no equitable way teacher? Have you had much experience of grammars?

sunshield · 05/07/2015 20:56

Interestingly New South Wales has 13000 year 6 students taking the selective high school test for 3600 places.

They use what is called 'wild score processing' which makes allowances for students who have not done as well as expected. This adjusts scores accordingly and is less open to tutoring and reduces the effect on disadvantaged students taking the test.

OP posts:
Gemauve · 05/07/2015 21:07

They use what is called 'wild score processing' which makes allowances for students who have not done as well as expected.

I would place a round of drinks on the main beneficiaries of that being white, middle children.

sunshield · 05/07/2015 21:34

Selectives are 'causing academic apartheid'

Date July 5, 201
Selectives are 'causing academic apartheid'

Date July 5, 2010

Read later

Anna Patty and Andrew Stevenson

in

Share
.

submit to reddit

Email article

Print

Reprints & permissions

.

Academic 'apartheid' in NSW schools

One of the state's leading educators says the selective school system is a form of academic apartheid and needs to be reviewed.
Autoplay OnOff
Video feedback
Video settings

NSW is creating a ''social and academic apartheid'' in education with private and selective schools prospering at the expense of comprehensive public schools, says one of the state's top educators.

Chris Bonnor, a former president of the Secondary Principals Council and former principal of Asquith Boys High, said Australia had established a tiered education system that was segregating students by income level and academic performance.

''We are separating our schools for the academic elite,'' he said. ''Schools which can do so are hunting out bright kids through tests, scholarships and interviews with parents and avoiding kids with learning difficulties,'' he said.

''There is also a worsening social class division with low-income children increasingly going to public schools and the richer kids going to private and selective schools.

Advertisement

''There is an increasing separation of kids along academic and social lines and, to some extent, along religious and cultural lines and nobody in government departments or government wants to talk about it.''

Richard Teese, a specialist in school systems at the University of Melbourne, said the expansion of selective schooling in NSW - there are now 17 fully and 28 partly selective high schools - was creating ''engines of high academic success'', but at a significant cost.

''It's a very inequitable policy because it takes away cultural and academic resources from many sites and concentrates them into a few,'' Professor Teese said. ''By operating schools like these you drain talent from many other comprehensive schools, which need what the French call pilot students - that is, model students who provide a really good example.

''The aim should be high standards everywhere. It doesn't make sense to have half a system that works and half a system that doesn't,'' he said.

Mr Bonnor, co-author of the book The Stupid Country: How Australia is Dismantling Public Education, said when two selective schools were established in the Hornsby area 15 years ago, surrounding schools were told this would provide more choice.

The schools made selective, Normanhurst Boys and Hornsby Girls, dramatically increased their share of high achievers, but the nine surrounding comprehensive schools and the low-fee private schools ''lost out''.

But the principals of those schools are in effect silenced about losing their best academic talent for fear of exacerbating the situation.

''I didn't say it when I was principal at Asquith Boys High. It has the danger of increasing the loss of the remaining high achievers from the school,'' Mr Bonnor said.

''We also now have an outbreak of pseudo-selective schools - both private and public - each setting tests to gather a disproportionate share of the able, the engaged and the anxious. This is especially taking place across northern Sydney.''

The principal of one selective high school, who did not want to be named, told the Herald that selective schools had been a disaster for comprehensive schools.

''My own view is if I were to wave a wand and start again, I would not have any selective schools or independent schools or private schools or public schools. I think the model I'd like to go for is your local community school. But that's 150 years too late. We've moved on so that's no longer possible.''

The government increased the number of selective school places by 600 to 4133 this year to help stem the drift from public to private schools.

The move will also increase the ranking achieved in the HSC results by the top selective high schools. James Ruse Agricultural High School has topped the Herald's HSC performance list for 14 consecutive years.

Last year, government selective high schools took out four of the top five positions.

The first comprehensive government high schools to appear on the Herald's list were Killara High School in 54th position and Cherrybrook Technology High School in 59th.

Mr Bonnor said the Department of Education ''pretends this problem does not exist''.

''The department is avoiding the issue and no one wants to know that by offering opportunities for some kids, this is reducing opportunities for others,'' he said.

.

Recommended

Karmichael Hunt has broken his teammates' trust, and I wouldn't want to play alongside him

Karmichael Hunt has broken his teammates' trust, and I…

Sport

Swans can't even trade Buddy, Tippett for a good player

Swans can't even trade Buddy, Tippett for a good player

AFL

This is game changer

This is game changer

National

Promoted Stories

Katie Price makes shock Oscar Pistorius claim

Katie Price makes shock Oscar Pistorius claim

GiveMeSport external site

Don't release equity before reading these 12 facts

Don't release equity before reading these 12 facts

Reader's Digest external site

This Online Tool Will Tell You What You’re Worth

This Online Tool Will Tell You What You’re Worth

The Independent external site

This Photographer Had No Idea What Was About To Happen

This Photographer Had No Idea What Was About To Happen

BoreBurn external site

Life Insurance Companies Hate This New Trick

Life Insurance Companies Hate This New Trick

Finance Digest external site

Recommended by

The 'Power of Makeup' selfies send an important message about makeup shaming

The 'Power of Makeup' selfies send an important…

Daily Life external site

Six stages of going on long car drives with kids

Six stages of going on long car drives with kids

Essential Kids external site

The 'Power of Makeup' selfies send an important message about makeup shaming

Six stages of going on long car drives with kids

in

Share
.

submit to reddit

Email article

Print

Reprints & permissions

.

Advertisement 0

OP posts:
sunshield · 05/07/2015 21:36

I think its only fair I post this article from the "Sydney Morning Herald..

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 06/07/2015 03:30

Pisa tests shoe that countries with mixed ability teaching do better.

"PISA 2012 confirms earlier PISA findings: school systems that perform well in PISA tend not to segregate pupils according to ability or by virtue of where they live. Michael Gove should bear this in mind before he pushes the pedal to the floor. - See more at:

www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/12/pisa-2012-confirms-earlier-findings-high-performing-school-systems-tend-not-to-segregate-pupils-by-ability/#.dpuf

CamelHump · 06/07/2015 06:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chaiselounger · 06/07/2015 06:59

I don't know why you are surprised that people pay for tutors. Don't people put names down at nursery whilst pregnant?
A newspaper article said that the very rich were teaching their toddlers Ballet, tap and Spanish!! Sounds about right these days!!

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:18

I agree with your last post CamelHump.
I think that the German system is good where a grammar school type education isn't the 'be all and end all' and they value technical and practical education. When I mention it on here I get sneering references to hairdressers as if it is a dreadful job- not a highly necessary one-or people don't have faith in 14 yr olds making sensible decisions about their futures. If they have a 14 yr old who is just going to 'follow their mates' I can't see they are going to be much of a success pushed into the academic by their parents. I would be surprised and disappointed if mine were not making considered, sensible decisions by then. Mine have always had lovely friends, so if they were silly enough just to 'follow their mates' it would be fine.
We do not need many surgeons and lawyers but we do need lots hairdressers, nurses, electricians, engineers, car mechanics, waiters, cooks, plumbers, shop assistants, nursery assistants, gardeners, postmen etc but although we need them we have a huge snobbery about it in UK. I wonder that anyone dare say they want to be a hairdresser, even if they are very artistic and know they would love it.
I would not be against grammar schools if you just needed a letter of support from the primary school. The teachers there know them better than any test can show on one particular day.
The government seems to have the weird idea that if you take in every child at 5 yrs and teach them 'properly' they will all go through the system and come out the other end with top results. They don't seem to realise that after the first hour they will all be in different places and there will be a huge range after the first year. There will always be an average, with those above and below. It doesn't matter how good the teaching is, some are not capable of getting to Oxbridge! They are just as valuable and important as people.

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:23

People need to get their name down for the nursery because if they don't they won't get the 'right' school and the 'right' university chaiselounger !!
The poor child has it decided before they are born - rather than waiting to see what the child needs or wants.

Gemauve · 06/07/2015 07:25

We do not need many surgeons and lawyers but we do need lots hairdressers, nurses, electricians, engineers, car mechanics, waiters, cooks, plumbers, shop assistants, nursery assistants, gardeners, postmen etc but although we need them we have a huge snobbery about it in UK.

Interesting that you put "engineer", a chartered profession most of the routes to which require A Level maths, in there. The Germans protect Engineer as a title, and Eng. or EurEng. are badges of pride. But you assume it requires no academic qualifications and it's like being a waiter. Then you complain about certain professions not being respected and the snobbery of it all.

What do you think being an "engineer" involves?

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:28

There you go! I rest my case as you assumed that I was making a list of jobs that don't need university qualifications.

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:31

Engineer covers a huge range. You may need high results to go to university but you may need basic GCSEs to do an engineering apprenticeship at 16 yrs. You may do the apprenticeship young and go later to a university course.
As I said- a huge snobbery every time I mention any path that isn't academic.

Gemauve · 06/07/2015 07:32

Yeah, right. Your list of "important" jobs didn't include nurses, GPs, teachers, but just happened to include engineer. Right.

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:33

And we do need lots of engineers- which was the only point that I was making.

Gemauve · 06/07/2015 07:35

But becoming an engineer requires what you're dismissing as a grammar school type education; in Germany, all engineers (with tiny numbers of exceptions) will have attended a Gymnasium.

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:35

Good grief- it wasn't even 7.30am when I wrote that off the top of my head- I didn't realise that I was supposed to plan an essay! It did include nurses.

Mehitabel6 · 06/07/2015 07:36

I think you have a narrow definition of 'engineer'.

Igneococcus · 06/07/2015 07:42

Ingenieur in Germany is not used in the same way as engineer is in the UK. Being an Ingenieur requires a university degree in Germany and I'm sure many engineers in the UK have one too, but you wouldn't ever hear someone who repairs a TV or a washing machine being referred to as an Ingenieur in Germany.