To be surprised at this Hollywood racism

[mileend2bermondsey]

in 2005. I was watching the romcom Hitch yesterday and read a bit of trivia that Will Smith reportedly stated the female lead was orginally supposed to be Cameron Diaz but the studio changed her for Eva Mendez as they thought an interracial couple would be 'too controversial'

The thing is. The main couple were STILL interracial, black and Hispanic. Another couple in the film were Caucasian and Asain, and another white and Hispanic. So what they were actually saying is no one will root for a black guy being with a white woman. Am I BU to be shocked at this racism, even back in 2005?

Do you realize how shockingly ignorant all of you sound? Referring to racism in America is like referring to racism in Europe. There is a huge variation from state to state and even within states. Not to mention that "Hollywood" (which is a funny term since virtually no movies are made in Hollywood any more) is just what a small group of wealthy individuals choose to portray about life and is hardly a true reflection of real life in the USA (if it was, no one would be interested).

I live in Los Angeles and although there are pockets of racism (no place is perfect and there is still work to do), the vast majority of the people that I interact with on a daily basis are extremely integrated racially and also socio-economically (something that I found didn't exist in the UK). I encountered far more racism, anti-semitism and classicism in my 7 years in London, than I have in a lifetime of living in multiple different cities in the USA.

Sofia, I understand your point about how huge the USA is and how generalising such a large area is off mark entirely, but I think when it comes to that small group of wealthy individuals this thread has raised a good point - why do they choose to portray life that way and when will they start getting "brave?" What will the impetus for portraying things more accurately/diversely be, and will it happen soon? I think it's interesting. I also think the difference between TV shows (in both USA and UK) and film on this topic is interesting - I've found TV shows tend to show a lot more diversity and interracial couples whereas films don't. Films with huge budgets seem to be more about the winning formula for box office success.

SofiaAmes I currently live in London, but used to live in LA, and have exactly the opposite opinion to you! I was shocked at how racially segregated LA seemed, compared to London. I rarely saw/heard any overt racism unsurprising, since California is at pains to present itself as liberal -- but there was so much separation, both geographically and economically.

Areas like Compton, South Central, Inglewood: there are no equivalents in London. The lines of separation in employment were also very distinctive; for example, about 90% of bus drivers, DMV clerks and postal workers I met were black. Almost all teachers and admin staff at my international school were white. DH worked in academia, and almost all his colleagues were white. The LA Times homicide report, most days, is disproportionately filled with the violent deaths of young black males. Absolutely no one I knew in LA would self-define as a racist, but most people there seem quite ready to accept that the different ethnic communities will lead very separate lives in the same city.

Mixed-race couples where one partner is white and one black are still vanishingly rare in US media -- including adverts, which another poster has already mentioned. That was another thing I noticed when I moved back to England: mixed race couples in ads.

And, OP: it's widely accepted, in the US media, that a Hispanic/black couple is 'acceptable', whereas a black/white couple is an 'issue'. Will Smith recently starred with (white, blonde) Margot Robbie in 'Focus', and the amount of vitriol was unbelievable. YANBU to be shocked at this racism.

On the BBC right now, The Interceptor has a black leading man (I think he might be mixed race) with a white wife - his race seems incidental too insofar as the character just happens to be black/mixed race. EE has done it too so it's not unheard of on the small screen.

Those wealthy individuals got that way by backing films that make money. The likelihood of making money is judged by multiple test screenings across America. This of course is far from perfect and is sadly leading to increasingly conservative and narrow choices in mainstream film making (eg all the reboots of old successful films). AmericanTV by contrast seems far more willing to take risks. I think it is a similar problem to the lack of black models (especially with darker skin tones) on the runway and on prestigious magazine covers (eg Vogue). There is a fear that money will not roll in. It is chicken and egg as to whether the problem lies with the actual attitudes of audiences across middle America or just the assumptions of the film studios. I feel that the occasional surprise hit demonstrates that audiences are not given enough credit ( eg the mainstream success of 'Brokeback Mountain' portraying a gay relationship).

Racking my brains for a film showing a black man in a relationship with a white woman it is sadly very difficult to think of many. In 'The Royal Tennembaums' by Wes Anderson, Anjelica Huston marries Danny Glover and race is not in anyway a feature of the story line.

Oh FFS Sofia ! The whole world is pretty damn racist, not just America. and, obviously, not many films are made in Holywood - but that doesn't mean that isn't where decisions about the films aren't made in the LA area , with Holywood being shorthand for that.

Also I really hate it when in films (Pitch Perfect was a recent offender) you can spot within 5 minutes which characters will be allowed to pair up. Eg the only two non white characters, the only two non Hollywood thin characters.

LadyLikeCough...really nothing like Compton in London? Funny, when I was living in Harlesden, it sure seemed pretty black and poor and high crime to me. And I didn't live in Brixton, but spent some time there and had much the same impression. Or perhaps Southall...not black but sure seemed pretty brown and ethnic to me.
Regarding the teachers at your school, perhaps it was because you were at an international school, but that's not my experience. My children have been at both public and private schools and the staff at both pretty closely mirrored the population percentages. Also, I suspect you are not aware of the salaries for all those jobs that you listed...they are all extremely well paid government jobs and probably all make more than school teachers and certainly more than teachers in the private sector.

You didn't mention what part of Los Angeles you lived in, but in my West Los Angeles neighborhood, 2 of my 4 next door neighbors are mixed race couples. I would say that most of my dd's friends are mixed race.

Anyway, all of this isn't to say that Hollywood doesn't do mixed race couples, but rather that it isn't necessarily reflective of how real people live and it doesn't mean that all of America is racist as some have said above or for that matter, none of America is racist.

Do you realize how shockingly ignorant all of you sound? Referring to racism in America is like referring to racism in Europe

The OP is posting about racism in US made film, using 'Hollywood' is a fairly widely accepted shorthand, if the OP had said 'Bollywood' we would know she meant Indian films, even though many dance scenes are filmed in Europe.

And films do not reflect real life ie how many fat people are there in films unless is it is part of the plot? How many people wear glasses? IRL it is 50% of the population.

We know it is fantasy and accept that, no one (unless it is part of the plot) uses the toilet, farts, has a period, has to use their hands to insert a penis or sleeps in the wet patch. Does it matter? Probably not because it doesn't alter the plot.

I find it interesting that in the original post there was no thought of changing the male lead to fit the 'no black man with a white woman' casting problem.

I'm reminded of Star Trek The Next Generation decades ago. Human-Klingon, Human-Vulcan and Human-Trill relationships were just fine, but when a light skinned black actress turns up as a guest star you just knew it was the love interest if the week for Geordi.

SofiaAmes I don't know about Harlesdon, but I live not far from Brixton and any comparison to Compton is ridiculous. Brixton is now a diverse area both ethnically and economically -- like most other parts of London, with a mix of low-income and social housing with some very expensive property. It's just not like LA, where you can drive a few miles and suddenly you're in an area where every single person is black and the economic standard of living (property prices, wages, risk of crime) is so utterly different you might as well have crossed a national border. I know different London districts have particular ethnic identities, and different prices and issues, but it's still nothing as extreme. The absolute divide of it was shocking.

And I don't agree that bus drivers, postal workers and DMV clerks are 'extremely well-paid government jobs'. Maybe postal workers, after years of service, but don't the other two roles make about $30k?

This is what frustrates me about California: the denial that there's any kind of racial divide or disparity. Everything is fine! And it's mirrored by people who work in the film industry (which is clearly what the OP meant by 'Hollywood') who'd rather die than say anything racist, but are silently loath to break barriers and risk profit margins by casting a black/white couple in a blockbuster.

Well it isn't an ideological decision, it's a self-interested commercial decision - and that's the real problem with Hollywood, too many creative works are vandalized out of greed and self-interest by that industry.

As for racist? Well there's a vast gulf between what people are tolerant of, and what people are eager to pay to see. Coldly speaking you want to create eagerness and happiness in your customers (if you don't care about artistic integrity) which is aimed at maximum sales, and not at pandering to intolerance itself.

Michelle Pfeiffer and Dennis Haysbert starred in Love Field in 1992.

Money is the only language Hollywood understands and they won't take a risk on having the audience ruffled by seeing the pretty white girl being kissed by a black man. People still don't like it.

Harlesden, Brixton and Southall cannot in anyway be compared to Compton. Those areas do have a larger population of black, H and B, Asian in S, but that does not stop white people from buying homes there. The same cannot be said of Compton I would imagine. No £500,000 homes there.

is it that surprising when we know how men and women still have to hide their sexuality

I agree about LA. Harlesden is nothing like Compton. There are areas where it is quite mixed but we do not have the equivalent of Echo Park (Hispanic) or Compton

I was in Echo Park and went into a shop and the shop keeper was black and i suddenly realised I had seen very few black people in a city that is so ethnically diverse yet the divide is like no where I have been before and that is with some of my family living in areas that are diverse or supposedly so

LA is different to London though much bigger and it is like many different citites in one city. Whille there are areas of London that there is obvious poverty it is not like in LA where you get large areas of run down communities, we do not have the same levels of violent crime and in London communities are more diverse, we may have small areas like Southall that are not but it is such a small area that is can not be compared to Compton

Average DMV and postal worker salaries is $48,000 + benefits which can add $10-$20,000 to the salary depending on when hired. Bus drivers make even more than that.

You guys really don't know what you are talking about. Just because you read an article about racism in Los Angeles or drove around in your car through Compton and got scared by "all the black people," doesn't make it so. Just as many "white" people live in Compton as do in Harlesden, Brixton or Southall. And Echo Park is extremely mixed although more hispanic than black (which is in fact the makeup of the whole state of California....). In fact it's the new area of gentrification. How large do you think Compton is? Perhaps you should avail yourself of some facts before spouting off about things that you don't know about. Compton has a population of approximately 100,000. 32.9% white, 25.9% black and 65% hispanic (note an overlap of races so not exact numbers). Echo Park has a similar makeup. Southall is 18% white with a population of 70,000. Harelesden is smaller but with a similar ethnic divide.

the vast majority of the people that I interact with on a daily basis are extremely integrated racially and also socio-economically (something that I found didn't exist in the UK). I encountered far more racism, anti-semitism and classicism in my 7 years in London, than I have in a lifetime of living in multiple different cities in the USA.

In my (black) experience, the vast majority of white people (or shall we say, members of the majority population) exaggerate how integrated their own countries or neighbourhoods are. I can't think of a single country I've ever been to where this is not the case.

My Jewish relatives have always found more anti-semitism in Britain (among certain classes at least), and far more class-consciousness, with a lot less interaction between people of very different socio-economic backgrounds here, in the South-East at least. (And I always remind foreign friends that anyone of them who has only lived in London is not qualified to comment about the UK, only about London).

In our experience as a family with members on both sides of the Atlantic, bi-racial families have always been more of a surprise and more remarkable or controversial in the US than here, but it varies widely depending on class. However, the US is changing very quickly, I think.

SofiaAmes, I think you're overinflating those salaries -- and, even if you weren't, saying a circa $50k salary in LA is 'extremely well paid' is ridiculous.

Look: I only responded to your post because you were so rude forthright, and you're talking about two cities I've lived in. Please don't pull that 'you drove through Compton once and got scared by the black people' crap.

I'm not even sure what's enraged you so much: it's not even up for argument that black/white relationships are extremely underrepresented in major studio pictures, and these pictures are a massively visible American export.

A movie like Hitch is a $70 million investment. The American public no longer goes to the movies by rote each weekend; you have to practically drag audiences in. If there's even the slightest chance the central relationship will confuse/appall/anger/alienate the audience, then it's not going to happen.

And that's not the same as saying all Americans are racist -- just, with that much money riding on it, production companies err strongly on the conservative side. And they haven't made the race/casting decision at random: there's obviously a long and horrible history of prejudice against black/white relationships. Again: I'm NOT saying that everyone in the US is against them, but the studios have clearly hedged their bets, and decided that the risk of alienating potential customers overcomes any urge to break the pattern or blaze a trail. (And it's not just about losing the overt bigot vote: it's about all the people who don't consider themselves racist ,but feel inexplicably 'uncomfortable' with a black/white pairing, and then feel sort of angry at any movie which reveals their own inadvertantly racist assumptions.)

(... I keep typing 'black/white' because these unspoken rules of representation don't apply to other interracial relationships.)

It's not even just the USA: these big budget films heavily rely on foreign market sales, too, and so they need to make the movie as 'accessible' as possible on a global scale, ie bland, branded, and with simple laughs and mild violence. Action heros are never gay. Female love interests can be 20 years younger than male protagonists, without comment, but reversing that is unthinkable.

What pisses me off just as much as the wimpy studios, is the way discussion about the race/casting issue gets shot down in America, all the way from 'no, Ross had that African American date on Friends, all the barriers have been broken and now you're just LOOKING for problems' to 'so you're saying that ALL AMERICANS ARE RACIST'. Meanwhile, the same old crap's being churned out by both Hollywood and the ad industry. Did you miss the massive fucking controversy about the Cheerios ad that featured a biracial family? When was that -- 1963? No: 2013. It made the fricking news.

I have not just read an article about LA or been scared by a scary group of black man in Compton again

some of my immediate family live there and have for nearly 40 years. I have family that live on the borders of echo park (where I have often stayed) and I have spent a lot of time there over the years

I had family and friends over from LA last week. Hispanic friend who could not get over how busy London, the crowds really bothered him and also how interracial it is compared to his experience of LA where he has grown up, my brother feels the same (he is Asian but it is always assumed he is Hispanic) neither would be considered white.

I have personally felt in LA that you have to fit in a box somewhere, and in my experience we do not have the separation that you do in LA maybe that is partly because London is smaller and less spread out and we live in closer proximity to each other poorer areas are only a few streets away from very nice affluent areas

Recently I saw a couple of comedy programmes based on black families that I used to watch when I was younger - The Fresh Prince of Bel Air and My Wife and Kids - and I realised that generally all the women were lighter skinned than the men.

I remember in the earlier episodes of both programmes, there were darker skinned female main characters who were replaced by lighter skinned ones. Aunt Viv in Fresh Prince and the eldest daughter in My Wife and Kids. Whether their replacements were intentionally lighter skinned I'm not sure.

I did watch The Cosby Show and Desmond's but I was much younger and I can't remember if those also had lighter skinned women and girls compared to the men and boys. I'm going to Google that now (if anyone cares to know my plans).

That sounds strange considering both diaz and Mendez are Cuban

But Diaz doesn't look Cuban.

im sure I read that in fresh prince the first vivana left, not sure why and in my wife and kids they replaced claire because they wanted her to be ditzy like junior and the darker skin girl didn't play ditzy well.

Claire was her name! Thanks that was bugging me! I think I read that Aunt Viv left because she had disagreements with Will and possibly other cast members.

I wasn't really thinking about why they left, I was wondering why both replacements were lighter skinned. Perhaps it was as simple as the new actresses were the best for the roles and complexion wasn't even thought about.

I know the episode of Fresh Prince I saw, I noticed that all the female extras (girls Will tried to chat up) were fairly light skinned too. It could have been a coincidence and the episode I watched might not be representative of the show as a whole, but it did stand out to me.

In the original Star Trek, 1960s, there was an episode that was banned for years because of an interracial kiss. I think it was Captain Kirk and Uhura (don't know for sure.) When you think about it in many states interracial marriae was banned until the 60s (I think)

I mean mixed race not interracial.