'outstanding' state primary or 'good' private primary

[journey2013]

I really need some advice on this as we are torn as to what to do.....my dd is in an outstanding primary just coming to the end of reception year. We are considering whether to move her to a private school which is more geared to passing the 11 plus.

dd is a bright girl from what we can tell so far and if she is capable would like her to go to grammar school.

Her current school is a nice environment and the children seem very happy on the whole. However we feel she could be pushed on a little more, however the schools ethos is more about the whole child and not to be too pushy with academics. The results yr 6 sats results are very good lots of level 5 and a few level 6. However the number getting into grammar is around 10/90 ....the private school is getting around 15/30 to 20/30 into grammar school.

We are just so torn as the state school has so much going for it:
outstanding ofsted,happy children, good facilities, lots of attention to the whole child and developing the emotional/social side of a child.

The private has: small classes (inf 12, junior 18), 11 plus prep, 'good' teaching, more studious peer group.

Can anyone provide some thoughts on this please ? Anyone made a similar decision ?

Thank you in advance

". I have come to believe that, if anything, the moniker "outstanding" is a red flag to a parent concerned about the child's intellectual development."

That really is utter bollocks!

We are in a grammar school area, my son won a scholarship to an outstanding private prep which has a "100% pass rate" into the grammars, at the end of Year 2.

We have four children and agonised over whether to move him or not as both DH and I were privately educated all the way through and wanted ours to have the same experience. However, my son was very happy and settled at his state primary; they have differentiated work all of the way through and this year he took the 11+ and got into a superselective grammar with a top score. The money that we save on not sending four to private school goes on all of the extra curricular activities that they would do at a private school - riding, music, ballet, sport etc - but without the 'burden' of fees (which it would have been for us).

The reason that the private schools (around here at least) have such high pass rates is because the children are coached for the test in school (which is banned in the state primaries), they all have tutors and a friend of mine's child came home (from his private school) in tears the day before the 11+ saying he found the stress too much. He wasn't even taking the test, and was in the year below - but the whole school was piling on the pressure on the Y6s and making it a massive deal. At my son's school (which is rated good, not outstanding btw) they have almost half of the year (45+ children) into grammar this year, and several into the superselectives - and without the massive pressure - they weren't even allowed to talk about who was taking it and there is such little noise made about it that it is less stressful for all concerned.

Sometimes I do regret that he's not got the confidence of his peers at private school, but I suspect that is part of his character as much as his schooling. His three siblings are confident as anything and mix perfectly happily with our many (privately educated) friends' children.

The 10/90 figure is slightly distorted isn't it?
Is it a state grammar or a private one?
If it is private- then realistically how many of those 90 children are entering for the grammar?
The private school is getting 1/3-2/3 pupils into the grammar school but it may be that is the clutch of parents who want their children to go there- other parents for whatever reason will want their children elsewhere.
In the primary school maybe only 15 families were able and willing to fork out the fees for the grammar and want their child their of those families then actually 2/3 got into the grammar. That is a random spread of numbers but what I am saying is given the spectrum of intake the 10/90 shouldn't be compared to the 20/30.

I would if she is happy keep things ticking along- but keep an eye on the school things in any school can change very quickly. Tutoring will help and being extended at school.

I agree with scatteroflight. Personally I would move

Firstly what sort of grammar area are you in. Some like in our area have a catchment area, some have no catchment 'superselective' and you need to score very highly to get in.

My DD is in a private primary. To the poster who asked why private primary not secondary the fees are much cheaper. DD's (up north) are £5750 a year. Private secondary is £10,000 plus a year.

At my DD's school most go into state at 11 and a lot to the grammars.

Since yr 3 they have been doing 11 plus prep gently so eg one bond test a week so Verbal reasoning isn't an alien concept. From Yr 5 they offer a 11 plus prep class after school inc in price. DD seems to be tested more than peers at state. They have an exam week each year. She is very used to tests which I hope will help her take 11 plus in her stride.

That said I know 3 in DD's yr 4 class are tutoring already. 2 are out of catchment so will need to score very highly.

One possibility is to see how yr 1 goes? Yr 1 is very different to play based reception and may suit your DD.

I admit happiness must make the decision very hard. We moved to the grammar catchment a year ago - our new state option is outstanding/top 10 SATS results in Uk. But DD is so happy I've opted to keep her where she is. However if we had lived here when she was 4 she would have gone to the state school no question.

Why does a 4/5 year old need to be pushed? Children this age are not even in formal education in most countries.

I would imagine that the benefit of private schooling is greater the further up the school system you go. If you're generally happy with your current school, and above all if your daughter is happy and settled there then save your money now, and pay for a tutor later if you have to.

The respective proportions of kids getting into grammar school are unlikely to be comparable, because not all primary kids will apply for grammar, and because a private school is by definition always selective on at least one measure.

My DD was in a private primary and passed the 11 plus with no tutoring at all - those of her friends who were tutored seemed to find the grammar school very tough in the first couple of years, and three of them left to go to private schools. It really depends on the primary - DD's primary did "coach" for the 11 plus, as mentioned earlier in the thread, but I found that the attitude was one of "these parents can afford school fees so we're not that fussed about them passing the 11 plus". I'm a completely single parent, including financially, and I definitely couldn't afford more than primary school fees so I did a couple of past papers with DD just before the actual exams, but that was all. I think that a bright child will pass anyway - to be honest I wasn't at all sure if DD would pass or not and had a state non-grammar school lined up too, which would have been fine. The grammar environment here (Kent) is fairly pushy, which suits DD but wouldn't be right for all children.

DD's (up north) are £5750 a year

No-one should consider that to be a usual figure if you aren't up North! London and surrounding areas fees are pushing that per term.

Yes electionfatigue I realise that hence adding the up North.

But when we had the hassle of not getting the state school we wanted I 'though' private was out of our reach as did DH (we are state school educated) Thankfully I checked and it turned out to be cheaper than dd's private nursery.

My kids have just moved to private from state, one in prep, one in pre-prep. We made the decision because we relocated and I didn't like any of the state primaries in the new area, we were very happy with our old (outstanding) state primary.
My advice would be to visit the private school. Where we lived before there were two ostensibly good private schools which I wouldn't have been happy to send my children to. The one they go to now is lovely. Open, warm, caring. Not pushy, but they do achieve good results which you'd pretty well expect from classes of around 12, specialist teachers and excellent facilities.
But you need to see the school and think about if it would suit your child. Do they focus on what you want them to focus on? What's the pastoral care like? That's way more important than academic results at such a young age.

I can completely understand why someone could do private for primary but not for secondary. Massive difference in the fees.
Here, near London, but not in London, primary fees to age 11 are (at our school) about £3,500 per term. Secondary fees locally are anything between £5,000 - £7,500 per term.

I would keep them in state. You can easily either get a private tutor for the grammar school test, or home tutor. I'm home tutoring my state educated DC (for a few months, not years), and it's not rocket science, and is actually quite good fun. While your DC is still young, you can just start her gently by using the Bond or similar maths and reasoning books for her age and making sure she reads widely, and then do more intensive work ahead of the test. If it turns out in a few years that grammar school wouldn't suit her, you will have saved some money which you could use on private school if you wanted.

Grumpysquash - the difference in teaching is that there are smaller class sizes, the children are coached for 11+ exams, and they all have parents who put a value on education. It's not that the kids in (any) private primary school are intrinsically brighter than children in (any) state school.

OP, it's a tricky decision. Ignore OFSTED and look at what you want for your child. In all areas. Academic is important but so are social skills, physical and mental health and wide knowledge of the world. Based on the overall conditions in which you think your daughter would best thrive, which school is more suitable? Bear in mind that from a state school 10/90 is pretty standard as the majority would struggle to pass.

And check that the private school doesn't get them in at a cost to their health. Most children can be coached to pass an exam if they do little else.

You don't need your child to be in a class with children who are all bright and hard working and whose parents all value education. It's enough if there is a handful of such children and your child is among them.
I expect that a far far higher proportion of the private school children take the grammar school test, which will largely explain why they get more in.

I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies for repeating anything.

I moved DD from an outstanding private school to a good state primary school. The state school has been so much better for her. I've realised it's not a private vs state or an outstanding vs good question - but what's right for your child.

Second point I wanted to make was, several children from my extended family got into grammar schools, all went to different state primary schools and none had private tutoring.

While this is going back over 20 years, those children who were moved from my state primary (circa 1992) to private to pass 11+ or tutored to pass, then went to similar universities and have similar careers to those who stayed at the local state primary and (then underperforming) comprehensive. I often think what a wasted childhood those children had - or what a waste of money.

I often think what a wasted childhood those children had

glad to see you're not generalising and that you know for 100% that their childhood was wasted

I agree with Lobster. I went from sink state to grammar and the children from private primary who were tutored really, really struggled. It's not a few terms worth of struggling either, it's right up to GCSEs and beyond and lot of them were unhappy in such a pressurised environment.

I'd go with whatever suits your DD best and where you think she'd be happiest.

Not in my experience, when I look at those children who were tutored til they were blue in the face to get into a grammar or private school, to come out with exactly the same as those who didn't, yes it is a waste.

Add message | Report | Message poster Floggingmolly Fri 12-Jun-15 09:30:30
"The private school kids will no doubt be tutored too... It's a rare child indeed, from whatever academic background, that attempts the 11+ without at least 3 years of tutoring under their belt."

I absolutely disagree. Very few are tutored at the school my 2 attend. The smaller class sizes and preparation in exam technique for the specific schools we feed into, seem sufficient.

If a child needs 3 years of tutoring to get into a school, that's not the right school for them. No wonder they'd be stressed trying to keep up!

I was educated privately. I think the small class size alone allows so much more one-to-one attention. It is extremely beneficial for a child to get the best possible start in terms of reading, writing and maths.

We are visiting two local private schools this week with a view to starting dd in September into year 1. She is a bright button but certainly not excelling.... struggling if anything a tiny bit in a class of 31. With an announcement this week of 3 more TA's going due to cutbacks it has spurred us on.

Part of me wishes we had started from reception....although I don't think pulling her out after one year would be as traumatic as later down the line.

As regards thinking about exams and tutors and grammar schools hadn't even thought about that yet. She's only just 5!!

only1scoop - TAs have been cut in year 2 at dd school this has also spurred us on!

Outstanding is a term used by the state to con parents into thinking state primaries are good. Ignore it. The academic private primaries tend to be 2 years ahead of even outstanding primary schools. I have been very pleased to educate our five privately from age 3 to 18.

By the way we haven't had ours tutored at all at any stage (except for one for a few weeks for a 7+ exam)
Why not send them to a private secondary too? 8% of children go to private schools and then get 50% pf the best university places, 80% of the judiciary, and most leading roles from acting to Olympic sport, medicine to banking. You know it makes sense.